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  Reply # 385124 27-Sep-2010 19:31
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Didnt realise VDSL2 cards were already price competitive but there would have to be a programme to eventually migrate ADSL2+ users on otherwise modern 7302 ISAMs. I guess most of the migration will be part of the cabinetisation programme. Some of it will depend if Telecom decides to play nicely with CFH.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 391282 13-Oct-2010 11:58
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From The Australian yesterday:


"The Tasmanian experience has been that about 50 per cent of the homes accepted the connection in the three towns chosen for the initial coverage. That is quite different from the percentage of households actually willing to pay to take the fibre broadband service itself. This is believed to be only a tiny number at present -- a few hundred -- despite very cheap start-up rates that don't even include retailers having to pay for access to the network. But even assuming the number of willing fibre broadband customers increases dramatically, the big-picture economics of NBN Co require as much fibre as possible to be laid during the initial rollout.

The expense of going back later to connect a house or small business with fibre would destroy the already difficult financial assumptions of the project, making it prohibitively expensive for the household, the retailer or NBN Co. It just doesn't work commercially.

That's why David Bartlett -- not to mention federal communications minister Stephen Conroy -- plans to ensure most households are made at least NBN-ready first time around.

Yet Australia's two most populous states have ruled out a similar opt-in approach, indicating the potential for about half of households not to agree to fibre being laid when the rollout occurs in their streets."

 

Build it and they will come.

No, honestly they will.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 391431 13-Oct-2010 17:36
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What's the alternative though keep using copper for another 10, 20, 50 years? It's reaching end of life, especially in upload rates.

Either a nationwide fibre network is a public good and we build one through government subsidization (aka our taxes) or it isn't and we and let companies build piecemeal networks that only connect profitable areas.

Farmers are a powerful lobby group, probably rightfully since they generate pretty much all our nations incoming revenue aside from tourism... you can imagine which approach they favour.



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  Reply # 391761 14-Oct-2010 12:21
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Ragnor: What's the alternative though keep using copper for another 10, 20, 50 years? It's reaching end of life, especially in upload rates.

Either a nationwide fibre network is a public good and we build one through government subsidization (aka our taxes) or it isn't and we and let companies build piecemeal networks that only connect profitable areas.

Farmers are a powerful lobby group, probably rightfully since they generate pretty much all our nations incoming revenue aside from tourism... you can imagine which approach they favour.





 

I'm not sure that it's completely fair to say that copper is reaching end of life.  VDSL is much more symmetrical - although requires a much smaller loop length to achieve this sort of speed.  Of course everyone agrees that fibre will be the replacement medium - the question is just as to when.

NZ does not have plans for a nationwide fibre network.  It has plans for a 75% footprint (within 10 years) - which is still viewed as being ambitious.  Farmers may be a powerful lobby group, but I suspect that the vast majority of those are in the 25% which will get no UFB coverage.  Hopefully most of them will be covered by the RBI - whatever that will end up looking like.

 




My views are my own, and may not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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  Reply # 392239 15-Oct-2010 14:01
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You're not going to see any benefit from VDSL over ADSL2+ if your line attenuation is too high, in NZ I reckon this means >600m from the cabinet/exchange.

Remember VDSL line rates ramp down massively as distance increases. 

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  Reply # 392243 15-Oct-2010 14:06
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Telecom have been playing with bonded VDSL2 which extends the reach of good speeds a bit beyond 1km, the bonding operates at ethernet frame level.

Cyril



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  Reply # 392257 15-Oct-2010 14:24
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cyril7: Telecom have been playing with bonded VDSL2 which extends the reach of good speeds a bit beyond 1km, the bonding operates at ethernet frame level.

Cyril


Why do you bond VDSL2 at that range?  Doesn't it drop off as fast as ADSL2+?  Why not bond ADSL2+?  Or are the ports the same cost?  Or am I just missing something completely?

What sort of performance are they getting at 1km?


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  Reply # 392523 16-Oct-2010 11:42
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ADSL2+ only uses ATM frames so not really practical to bond lines for cheaper services at that layer, and the ADSL2+ cards wouldn't have the capability anyway. This bonding question does make it obvious that copper is reaching a plateau with distance and speed but maintenance has to keep going too. Instead of sinking money into building more and closer DSL cabinets, its being argued to use that money to build fibre now. Of course Telecom has to play nicely if they want to get the benefits of the UFB rollout.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 393006 18-Oct-2010 07:40
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webwat: ADSL2+ only uses ATM frames so not really practical to bond lines for cheaper services at that layer, and the ADSL2+ cards wouldn't have the capability anyway. This bonding question does make it obvious that copper is reaching a plateau with distance and speed but maintenance has to keep going too. Instead of sinking money into building more and closer DSL cabinets, its being argued to use that money to build fibre now. Of course Telecom has to play nicely if they want to get the benefits of the UFB rollout.


UFB is an open access network.  Telecom dont have to play nice to get the benefits - but they have to play nice if they want to build it. 

Nothing to stop them buying access on the same terms and conditions as every other wholesale (and/or retail) provider to get the benefits of the network for customers.

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  Reply # 394392 21-Oct-2010 15:54
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Sorry for long_post.

Hi I am interested in the FTTN, know some stuff about telecommunications, read some about fiber and that, but am still a bit confused. I am not exactly sure on what FTTN is but was hoping someone here could clarify things a bit :P. How much further would FTTN extend fiber from the cabinets to the houses, and how much area/houses would a node cover? Would their be many nodes or a few nodes, how many nodes would a cabinet have, would their be on a street/block? Basically how far from cabinet to house would FTTN extend the fiber network and could someone give me a general idea of how many nodes their will be?

Is the NGN definitely going to be FTTN and not FTTH or something else?

I have heard an argument of using FTTN as a step, like cabinetization, as part of a strategy to shorten the local loop (presumably with the objective being FTTH). But I don't understand this, because in order to get FTTN must you not first either drill, dig and/or put_on_powerlines Fiber cables from exchanges to nodes, then join nodes to copper network. Then they may have to buy more equipment to work this new infrastructure (I don't know). Then at the end of the day they would have to virtually dig/drill and or overhead as much almost as they would have had to originally if they had just gone from the Cabinet->FTTH? I say this because the Fiber would still have to go from the nodes to the houses (unless the nodes only cover a few houses). And at the very least it would be the same amount of digging/trenching/over-heading done in total, to get FTTH, regardless of whether you went with FTTN first(I doubt FTTN magically shrinks the distance from the cabinet to you're houses). So wouldn't it be cheaper to go from cabinet to FTTH? And would theire be a performance(or other) and/or a structural difference between the networks based on whether you had gone from Cabinet>FTTN>FTTH or Cabinet>FTTH?

What type of connection would you have with FTTN and what would the speeds be like, I would imagine they would be similar to the faster VDSL2 rates one can get with low line attenuation. And I wouldn't imagine that this would provide that much of a benefit, save for those on the outskirts of the cabinet areas over VDSL2... And when you consider the cost of doing this I cant imagine the results would stack up to well against VDSL2, couldn't imagine it being that cost effective unless the speeds are really high.

I really don't understand FTTN, and they have still been replacing footpaths and stuff since national got in. And doesn't that mean they will be digging up new footpaths? (which must cost more, as they are replacing them twice or more..). I haven't heard much about the network yet and don't they only have 6 or 7 years left to build it (if they want to keep their word?). And they still have to order all the equipment for the network (and possibly some equipment + people to build it), and I don't think its like a supermarket where you walk in and buy stuff you like the look of, I think you may actually have to order it. Im wondering how far the plans are for this network and when they will be finished, because I am very curious as to how long they reckon it will take them to build the network, and where they will get all the equipment and people to build it. Because based on the lack of plans (which I have yet to see or hear about) I am guessing that they think it will not take long..

Yell***Rant start warning:***Yell
And if it takes 10 years to make/get FTTN.....I am just wondering how long it will take too we get the next thing(guessing more than 10 years....)........ **sigh**....Bet japan will be on Terra-bit Internet..... I cant help but feel pessimistic about this network...the one I never hear anything about but apparently is going to be built...They yabbed on about it (and other stuff) so much at the last elections because they 'cared about all that stuff', and 'they really wanted to change things' but when the elections are over they turn around and shut their traps, as if they couldn't care less about all the stuff they said during the elections, and we haven't heard a word from them since... Then they U-turn on everything:

-Tax cuts>GST,ACC hikes,Carbon taxes, creating opportunities>cutting university seats/funding and other educational programs + raising more standards such as primary school standards, Stuff about the

-Economy> Carbon emissions schemes,

-Saying the whole anti-smacking bill thing was wrong, complaining about that stuff during the elections (I think they didnt even vote for it)>then turning around and shrugging it of when they gets in, finally agreeing to hold a referendum, then laughing at (whilst citting how it wasted money, which I guess we now know was right because they where not going to do anything about it at all in the first place..) when like 79% of the people voted against it.

-ETC... Really raises my expectations.
Smile***Rant end warning:***Smile

And ignoring all of this nonsense (ahh to live free, in a country where internet is a human right, and they actually have an industrial sector :] ), none of the aforementioned nonsense really matters unless either the internet plans come down in cost so any new ones don't cost extra (somehow I doubt that would happened) or data usage prices are either removed or are reduced exponentially. Oh and then the Isps need to give us a reasonable level of service.

So could anyone in 'the know' tell me what they think of the FTTN and our internet prospects? Lol I am just hoping for now that data usage costs continue to increase below or at the level of inflation :] (WXC put theires up recently and apparently Orcon did too, don't know if any others have but I am guessing soo... I know Telecom put theirs up a few years ago...).

Oh and sorry about rant....

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  Reply # 394394 21-Oct-2010 16:03
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I wont be an apologist for Telecom but FTTN cabinetisation was mooted for rollout in 2000 or 2001.  Personally I think the level of regulation and uncertainty on investment coupled with the absence of demand for higher broadband speeds in residential areas has driven the delays.

FTTN rollout started late 2008 so 8 years late.  But in that time there has been extensive inner city fibre build to address business needs.  Outrageously priced byt built nontheless.  Same as Sydney or Melbourne.  The number of fibre connected buildings is astonishing - but not that much takeup.

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  Reply # 394397 21-Oct-2010 16:08
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Hi, I have not read all of your post, but just one point before you go any further the FTTN project is already around 70% complete and scheduled to complete by the end of next year, not in 10yrs.

Many folk on this forum already experiencing the advantages of the FTTN project (aka as cabinetisation). As far as I am aware most if not all the fibre for the FTTN project is already in place, there has been a flurry of fibre pushed out to the node sites over the last couple of years, sometimes well ahead of when the actual cabinets arrive.

In general the aim of the FTTN project was to keep copper tail lengths down to around 2km or less, this would be the norm in most town areas, but in heavily populated areas the density of required ports (hence the distance between cabinets) means that the tail lengths are significantly less than that.

Cyril

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  Reply # 394417 21-Oct-2010 16:43
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I haven't read the whole post either but the NGN is definitely intended to be FTTH.

It doesn't really matter if this takes 10 years and the technology changes because at the end the fibre will be in place and it's really only the technology that lights the fibre that really changes and that is relatively easy to change. Just look at how the Southern Cross cable keeps increasing capacity. The slow bit is laying the cable in the first place.

The other hard bit is getting people to use it.

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  Reply # 394438 21-Oct-2010 17:27
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OH FTTN = Cabinets Yell... Yeah my area is cabinetized.





Downstream Line Attenuation:
10 db


Upstream Line Attenuation:
0.5 db




I would get fast internet with VDSL2 Laughing.


But seriously $185+ for internet and phone is ridiculous. I want faster speeds, but not for more money.... I don't think people will want to pay more for faster internet when they pay for data and have huge bills. Anyway I thank you for clearing up The FTTN=Cabinets..

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  Reply # 394559 21-Oct-2010 21:43
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who you with man i get 100GB for $185 and phone.
Keep in mind prices will also go down with Pacific Fiber's project (hopefully)[off topic].
[on topic] even with FTTN isps without their own cards still need to pay for the adsl2+ access right?

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