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  # 432699 29-Jan-2011 21:56
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snnet:
hamish225:
snnet:
sbiddle:
snnet: The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  


And this leads on to my belief that a minimum wiring spec should be in the building code, and applied to every new home built in NZ. Without it things will simply never move forward.


I'd be in support of that- but how can it actually be accomplished? Do you think signatures would suffice for it? It'd sure make my job easier. 


write to your loal MP?

or council. i dont know.

both? lol. 


somehow, I'm not sure they'd care about something like this...

But I could be wrong. For some reason they care about broadband speeds when we still have poverty in auckland 


there's poverty everywhere and unfortunitely that's not going to change.
There has been more media coverage of broadband speeds lately so they might care/think they can get some voters by doing something about this. 





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  # 432824 30-Jan-2011 14:48
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What happens if you buy a house in this "ISP prison" of a new subdivision, and then xnet refuse to connect you for whatever reason?

or if you have a disconnection because of unpaid bill and need to use someone line 0800 reconex etc?

Or if you are flatting with others and need multiple ISP connections into the house?

xnet have quite harsh policys about credit checking when I last considered using them, so if they wouldnt connect someone who moves in, what options do they have to get essential services?

Also the limitation in their available plans and policies about what they will disconnect you for?

Seems to me that the developers are shooting themselves in the foot by neglecting to install copper to these places.




Richard rich.ms

 
 
 
 


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  # 432830 30-Jan-2011 15:06
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You won't have to worry about shortly as the pilot will most likely be finished within a few months and other SP's will be free to supply offerings so the prison doors will be open, I know for sure if I had a option to pick a house in a new subdivision one fibre and one copper I know which one I would opt for.




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  # 432838 30-Jan-2011 15:25
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More upload would be the only benefit I could see in fiber right now, the pricing sure doesn't make it any more attractive. All I am saying is that now is far too early to be going fiber only in new subdivisions as it offers no benefit over copper to most people, at a higher price and reduction in choice. The lack of warning ahead of time about that is the problem I would have if I had decided to move into one of the affected houses.

No naked internet offers from xnet listed either.





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  # 432852 30-Jan-2011 16:05
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richms: ... All I am saying is that now is far too early to be going fiber only in new subdivisions as it offers no benefit over copper to most people, at a higher price and reduction in choice. ... 

No naked internet offers from xnet listed either.



With respect, I have got to say that I couldn't agree less!

If we continued with a dual-technology deployment model, the costs of the new technology (fibre) wouldn't come down as quickly, and there are immediate benefits to fibre over copper: Much lower latency, and higher reliability, and the ability for households to download much larger volumes of "stuff" at great speed (of course you need "enabling" plans from good ISPs to achieve the last part of this.)

I just wish I had FTTH at my place. I do not enjoy the restrictions of ADSL based service!




kind regards Andrew TD


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  # 432858 30-Jan-2011 16:22
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How much lower than 7ms do you need to get really? The only benefit over ADSL right now is the upload speed IMO, there are no plans to suit a high speed connection, just like there are no plans to suit ADSL

There is no ability to get a non priced per gig plan on it, they dont even have the decency to have their "torrent" plan available which give you a token amount of offpeak data in exchange for being screwed even more for the onpeak amount.

Compare what 100 gigs would cost on the xnet plan vs most adsl providers that will do it (so not vodafone) - like orcon etc.

In addition, the homeowner is expected to provide UPS to allow for phone connections to operate in power outages. Another unexpected cost, particually for people who have no desire to get an internet connection.

Untill the rollout is complete, and there is competition for ISPs providing real plans on it, then it should not be the only option available to homeowners.

edit: and I have no problems with the reliability of the ADSL part of the ADSL connection. Everytime there has been an outage, ADSL is up and it was failing at the PPP stage. No reason to think that fiber would be any more or less reliable in that respect, and the PSTN will certainly be less reliable than an analog line from the provider, so again no reason to push ahead with it as a replacement to copper instead of as well as till the technology, provisioning and support processes have matured.




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  # 432862 30-Jan-2011 16:40
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richms: ... so again no reason to push ahead with it as a replacement to copper instead of as well as till the technology, provisioning and support processes have matured.


Yes - it does cost more at set-up time, and yes currently available plans don't really enable you to take full advantage of the  ability to download heaps.

But, my main point is that you can't make real progress until you start actually doing it. How can those processes mature if we don't start using them? 

If we shied clear of adopting new technologies because they initially cost a bit more, or didn't work quite the same  as the old ones, we wouldn't make much progress.

Whilst I accept your point that end users should have the choice as to whether they participate in new technologies, and they don't in this respect if they are forced to purchase a house in a new sub-division.
But in reality - no-one is forced to build a house in a new sub-division. You can buy an existing house instead of building new if you really, really didn't want to participate in this new technology.

Which kind of brings us back to the main point in this thread. The new house builder wasn't told about this new technology requirement by the developer, and he should have been.  




kind regards Andrew TD


 
 
 
 


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  # 432864 30-Jan-2011 16:44
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you really want to lay copper and fibre to these places , yep no worries where all made of money so we should overlay 2 sets of infrastructure.

oh btw It's a PILOT !!!!!!!, Pilots are there for a reason,it's a structured approach to test commercial, deployment and technical areas and a lot of work has been going on to make the service a reliable / viable option for PSTN replacement, by your theory it should have been open house for one all since day one with 2 sets of infrastructure, perhaps you should be on our side of the fence and take a look at what actually goes on.

The UPS is already being looked at and has been since day one, , Chorus and Wholesale have been working on this for a while , been a few pos'st about this earlier (home hub etc), btw hows your cordless phone going to work as it stands now ? which is what most households have.

As for the plans , these are pilot plans and you seem to miss this point, it is designed to work through issues and provide a better product for the wholesale product offering, Wholesale wanted a partner it could work with and actually had a mass deployment VOIP model that was working can you name anyone that is/was capable of deploying this model for the pilot when the RFI went out ?

When the service goes BAU ISP/ ITSP's can offer what ever they like but right now the plans are basic and they are there for a reason, voice only and a 30/6




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

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  # 432866 30-Jan-2011 16:46
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AndrewTD:
richms: ... so again no reason to push ahead with it as a replacement to copper instead of as well as till the technology, provisioning and support processes have matured.


But, my main point is that you can't make real progress until you start actually doing it. How can those processes mature if we don't start using them? 

If we shied clear of adopting new technologies because they initially cost a bit more, or didn't work quite the same  as the old ones, we wouldn't make much progress.

 


Couldn't agree more Andrew




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

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  # 432868 30-Jan-2011 16:52
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The developer has cheaped out with what they have paid for to be installed and are now finding the problems. It was their decision to be part of this trial, and not provide the traditional services which one expects when getting a house.

If the OP cant get a working suitable internet connection by the time it is time to move in, then IMO its time to start getting the lawyer onto the developers over the problems. Even if they can, IMO they should approach the developer for compensation for the additional expenses they have incurred as a result of them cheaping out and not installing copper.

Any new technologies like this should not have someone who has just shelled out on a section and a build (and I assume the build was thru the developer at inflated prices as that's normally how subdivisions work) being made the unsuspecting guinea pig for these new services.

Any trials should be optional and not forced like this.




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  # 432887 30-Jan-2011 18:29
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There are tons of subdivisions with restrictions on the types of building materials you can use - e.g. brick only, no plaster or weatherboard, some that say your house must have a clay tile roof, some that say you cant have a tin garden shed in your back yard unless it has a tiled roof, some that dictate how many cars are allowed to park in your driveway at once.  Not to mention some of the council imposed ones like heritage zones etc.  Why should a subdivision that enforces fibre-only services be any different from those?  When you buy a section or a house you're buying into all those restrictions.  Its up to you to find out what they are before you pay the money and start building.

In any case most people would have seen it as a selling point having a fibre subdivision instead of a copper one.

Also, who has 7ms pings on ADSL?




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  # 432888 30-Jan-2011 18:35
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Just looked now and my pings have gone up now, but they used to be 7-11ms to the other end of the adsl connection when the line was unloaded. Getting 22ms now for some reason. Must swap the router back.

Also, I think you will find that all those things in the contract about what you can do with the house once you have moved in are not enforceable in NZ once you have title. This is not the USA with homeowner associations etc, only places with body corporates have rules like that, and I am not aware of any in NZ operating that way. Council do things like noone living in a caravan on the property etc.

It would be a selling point if it was a fully operating service with choice of providers etc, not as a limited trial. I expect that the developer was offered a deal to be in the trial and took telecom up on the offer.




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  # 432894 30-Jan-2011 18:48
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Are you all who are against this not reading the posts from people who have actually been physically involved in these fibre rolllouts? Maverick has already said multiple times that it is in pilot stage which is ending soon and will be open to other providers willing to compete.

FYI in regards to extra set up costs, all of the installations I've done with fibre have had the fibre install paid for by the building company. Of course this is factored in when a quote is given to the client but there was no extra cost after this quotation. (Noting here that the developer is not always the first (in fact rarely) builder/company that purchases certain plots)

I doubt they would have been offered a deal for putting in fibre at all. Although we're seeing contradictions from others on here, the majority of the Chorus new subdivision installations are fibre-only for subdivisions with more than 150 plots.

I've only actually read on here where people haven't been aware their plot is in a fibre only subdivision- so yes I guess like most other information there is some missing for some people. Most however are aware of what is going on.

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  # 432904 30-Jan-2011 19:15
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richms:

Also, I think you will find that all those things in the contract about what you can do with the house once you have moved in are not enforceable in NZ once you have title. This is not the USA with homeowner associations etc, only places with body corporates have rules like that, and I am not aware of any in NZ operating that way. Council do things like noone living in a caravan on the property etc.


i think you'll find that they are completely enforceable and they become part of the title.  The only way to remove them will be to get all of your neighbours under the covenants to all agree to have them removed.

The latest one I heard was for a subdivision that banned chickens and cats...




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  # 432906 30-Jan-2011 19:18
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Any cases of them being upheld? I know of someone who plainly ignored the cladding requirements on a place, got past council ok.




Richard rich.ms

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