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  Reply # 490418 7-Jul-2011 09:15
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networkn:
wreck90: When I moved back to NZ, a must have was a broadband connection so I could operate my business.

Telecom were obstructive to say the least. Having chosen a possible house, I contacted telecom to determine internet connectivity.

Despite my explanation that I could not move into the house unless it could receive broadband, telecom said that it should be possible but it was still at my own risk.

I've moved several times, and it was the same each time.

Telecom need to provide better assurance.

Felt sorry for these people on fair go, they were shafted. Telecom / chorus should have known that they were out of range.

I wonder, if they can get wireless 3g until their house is cabinetised (this was mentioned at the end of the story). Satellite is no good.




To be honest I never understood this demand for certainty, there are so many factors that would potentially stop this from happening. Imagine what would happen if the condition of sale/purchase of a house could legally be made Telecoms responsibility. If I needed it this badly, I would have paid to have an onsite inspection by telecom of the building in question.  If you are buying a house a $150 call out fee for something so critical to you doesn't seem unreasonable.


To fill you in regarding your lack of understanding.   Some people require broadband, so they must know if the expensive property they are about to buy can receive broadband.

Telecom did not offer me the service as you described-I told telecom, i need BB for my work and it would be a disaster if I moved in and couldn't get BB --telecom just said tough, your problem.

I would have been happy to pay $150 to ensure broadband would be available at a prospective address.

This is not rocket science here.

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  Reply # 490426 7-Jul-2011 09:26
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Handle9:
networkn: 

To be honest I never understood this demand for certainty, there are so many factors that would potentially stop this from happening. Imagine what would happen if the condition of sale/purchase of a house could legally be made Telecoms responsibility. If I needed it this badly, I would have paid to have an onsite inspection by telecom of the building in question.  If you are buying a house a $150 call out fee for something so critical to you doesn't seem unreasonable.


It doesn't sound like they were made aware that an inspection was an option. They rang up, asked if they could get broadband and were told they could.

If I rang up and asked if I could get a service at an address and was told I could then I would presume that the  service provider had systems in place that told them whether or not they could provide a service. It's not up to consumers to be experts on this stuff, it's up to the providers.

Most consumers have no idea about how ADSL works and don't understand how distances to the exchange works. They just presume it will unless told otherwise. This couple didn't presume - they actually rang up and checked. Telecom didn't give them informed advice and that was the issue.

As another post said - if they had been told the area was marginal or that the exchange was full and there may or may not be service available then it's a totally different story.


I think the two cases are getting mixed up. I was referring to the poster who said his business relied on it. He seems more switched on than the average home user, and I was alluding the the fact you can't expect a provider to guarantee anything until service is switched on.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 490430 7-Jul-2011 09:28
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networkn:

To be honest I never understood this demand for certainty, there are so many factors that would potentially stop this from happening. Imagine what would happen if the condition of sale/purchase of a house could legally be made Telecoms responsibility. If I needed it this badly, I would have paid to have an onsite inspection by telecom of the building in question.  If you are buying a house a $150 call out fee for something so critical to you doesn't seem unreasonable.



 


Did you watch the article?  The point was that the consumer did everything they could think of to ensure broadband was available, even going as far as talking to a Telecom representative to ensure they could get it.  All signs pointed to available, hell they even got texts stating that it had been connected.  Not once were they told the only way to ensure broadband capabilities is to pay for Chorus to come out, it doesnt say that on any website - its something you have just stated..  Telecoms customer service fell short, way short in my opinion - doesnt help when somebodies livelihood requires Internet that you now say cant be connected, and then your "senior" rep laughs at the customer..

 

EDIT: replied while you were replying above, your posts makes more sense, left this here for OP, who appears to have no sympathy for the poor couple

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  Reply # 490437 7-Jul-2011 09:38
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wreck90:
networkn:
wreck90: When I moved back to NZ, a must have was a broadband connection so I could operate my business.

Telecom were obstructive to say the least. Having chosen a possible house, I contacted telecom to determine internet connectivity.

Despite my explanation that I could not move into the house unless it could receive broadband, telecom said that it should be possible but it was still at my own risk.

I've moved several times, and it was the same each time.

Telecom need to provide better assurance.

Felt sorry for these people on fair go, they were shafted. Telecom / chorus should have known that they were out of range.

I wonder, if they can get wireless 3g until their house is cabinetised (this was mentioned at the end of the story). Satellite is no good.




To be honest I never understood this demand for certainty, there are so many factors that would potentially stop this from happening. Imagine what would happen if the condition of sale/purchase of a house could legally be made Telecoms responsibility. If I needed it this badly, I would have paid to have an onsite inspection by telecom of the building in question.  If you are buying a house a $150 call out fee for something so critical to you doesn't seem unreasonable.


To fill you in regarding your lack of understanding.   Some people require broadband, so they must know if the expensive property they are about to buy can receive broadband.

Telecom did not offer me the service as you described-I told telecom, i need BB for my work and it would be a disaster if I moved in and couldn't get BB --telecom just said tough, your problem.

I would have been happy to pay $150 to ensure broadband would be available at a prospective address.

This is not rocket science here.


There is no need for this tone in your response. I understand you "NEED" Internet, but if I NEEDED Internet I am saying there were additional steps that could have been taken to increase the certainty for you. If you didn't know about them, well that's fine, but they are there. It's not feasible for a call centre tech to be able to guarantee service to the level that the sale and purchase of property would depend on it.



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  Reply # 490442 7-Jul-2011 09:52
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Can anyone tell me what www.getsorted.co.nz is and who pays for it?

I know what http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ is, but can anyone tell me about the marketing of that site?

Frankly if I was the Telecom CEO I'd be rightly annoyed as hell that government television is having a swing at my company rather than stepping up with proper solutions to this problem.

The government wanted a deregulated market with commerical competitors in it and didn't want one provider to be a monopoly, yet the government television station is swinging at providers rather than taking ownership of this crap.

The government needs to step up and own this one, not some half baked private company with call centers around the world, with a failing share value, etc.

So what?! Telecom isn't in the business of providing every New Zealander equal service and has crap customer service - doh, come on.... we know that... XT failure, over billing customers for data, GoLarge...

Seriously.... it's time to leave Telecom to do what ever it wants to do and get focused on New Zealand (or any for that matter) companies that can, will and are providing service.

http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ needs to be marketed to the public so they can understand who provides service in areas.

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/index.php?option=com_us_retailer&view=retailer&controller=retailer&task=view...

I very much doubt that there isn't a wireless provider who could pump 20mbits to that location in the customers area.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz

A consumer focused, private web site with truck loads of industry people who would love to help out getting these guys connected to something faster.

http://www.nznog.org/

Web site with details of every provider in the country... and it's got a mailing list that anyone can join ffs. It's not hard.

The govt aren't even trying to fix this problem at all.







Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


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  Reply # 490453 7-Jul-2011 10:07
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networkn:
wreck90:
networkn:
wreck90: When I moved back to NZ, a must have was a broadband connection so I could operate my business.

Telecom were obstructive to say the least. Having chosen a possible house, I contacted telecom to determine internet connectivity.

Despite my explanation that I could not move into the house unless it could receive broadband, telecom said that it should be possible but it was still at my own risk.

I've moved several times, and it was the same each time.

Telecom need to provide better assurance.

Felt sorry for these people on fair go, they were shafted. Telecom / chorus should have known that they were out of range.

I wonder, if they can get wireless 3g until their house is cabinetised (this was mentioned at the end of the story). Satellite is no good.




To be honest I never understood this demand for certainty, there are so many factors that would potentially stop this from happening. Imagine what would happen if the condition of sale/purchase of a house could legally be made Telecoms responsibility. If I needed it this badly, I would have paid to have an onsite inspection by telecom of the building in question.  If you are buying a house a $150 call out fee for something so critical to you doesn't seem unreasonable.


To fill you in regarding your lack of understanding.   Some people require broadband, so they must know if the expensive property they are about to buy can receive broadband.

Telecom did not offer me the service as you described-I told telecom, i need BB for my work and it would be a disaster if I moved in and couldn't get BB --telecom just said tough, your problem.

I would have been happy to pay $150 to ensure broadband would be available at a prospective address.

This is not rocket science here.


There is no need for this tone in your response. I understand you "NEED" Internet, but if I NEEDED Internet I am saying there were additional steps that could have been taken to increase the certainty for you. If you didn't know about them, well that's fine, but they are there. It's not feasible for a call centre tech to be able to guarantee service to the level that the sale and purchase of property would depend on it.


Sorry you thought my tone was bad , not intended.

This is the thing, I told telecom it was extremely important for me to know if the new place could get broadband.  They never once explained that there were additional steps that could be taken.   It was a plain old lottery. 

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  Reply # 490466 7-Jul-2011 10:28
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DonGould: Can anyone tell me what www.getsorted.co.nz is and who pays for it?

I know what http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ is, but can anyone tell me about the marketing of that site?

Frankly if I was the Telecom CEO I'd be rightly annoyed as hell that government television is having a swing at my company rather than stepping up with proper solutions to this problem.

The government wanted a deregulated market with commerical competitors in it and didn't want one provider to be a monopoly, yet the government television station is swinging at providers rather than taking ownership of this crap.

The government needs to step up and own this one, not some half baked private company with call centers around the world, with a failing share value, etc.

So what?! Telecom isn't in the business of providing every New Zealander equal service and has crap customer service - doh, come on.... we know that... XT failure, over billing customers for data, GoLarge...

Seriously.... it's time to leave Telecom to do what ever it wants to do and get focused on New Zealand (or any for that matter) companies that can, will and are providing service.

http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ needs to be marketed to the public so they can understand who provides service in areas.

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/index.php?option=com_us_retailer&view=retailer&controller=retailer&task=view...

I very much doubt that there isn't a wireless provider who could pump 20mbits to that location in the customers area.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz

A consumer focused, private web site with truck loads of industry people who would love to help out getting these guys connected to something faster.

http://www.nznog.org/

Web site with details of every provider in the country... and it's got a mailing list that anyone can join ffs. It's not hard.

The govt aren't even trying to fix this problem at all.






You've completely missed the point of the story - the point wasn't that there was no service, the point was they were told there was service when there wasn't .

You might actually want to go back and watch the whole story rather than jumping to conclusions as to why Fair Go was giving Telecom a hard time.

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  Reply # 490482 7-Jul-2011 10:52
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Sorry Don but I need to pick at your post.

DonGould: Can anyone tell me what www.getsorted.co.nz is and who pays for it?


Not sure how this is relevant, it's just 'parked' and trapping search data in the way plenty of domain squatters do.


I know what http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ is, but can anyone tell me about the marketing of that site?


I doubt the Govt has done much marketing of it at all, but it's well known in ISP circles... and it's easily found via web search.


Frankly if I was the Telecom CEO I'd be rightly annoyed as hell that government television is having a swing at my company rather than stepping up with proper solutions to this problem.


The government wanted a deregulated market with commerical competitors in it and didn't want one provider to be a monopoly, yet the government television station is swinging at providers rather than taking ownership of this crap.

The government needs to step up and own this one, not some half baked private company with call centers around the world, with a failing share value, etc.


Fair Go is hardly 'government TV', that's a sensationalist statement to make.



So what?! Telecom isn't in the business of providing every New Zealander equal service and has crap customer service - doh, come on.... we know that... XT failure, over billing customers for data, GoLarge...

Seriously.... it's time to leave Telecom to do what ever it wants to do and get focused on New Zealand (or any for that matter) companies that can, will and are providing service.

http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/map/ needs to be marketed to the public so they can understand who provides service in areas.



Great ideas but for many ISP's Telecom (Wholesale) is still involved.  Worth noting the operational seperation between the Retail and Wholesale arms, and note that the above statements apply to their Retail arm.


http://www.gowifi.co.nz/index.php?option=com_us_retailer&view=retailer&controller=retailer&task=view...

I very much doubt that there isn't a wireless provider who could pump 20mbits to that location in the customers area.

Just as I suggested earlier, however, >10Mbit on unlicensed spectrum is unlikely.  Thus this will be an expensive option relatively speaking.


http://www.geekzone.co.nz

A consumer focused, private web site with truck loads of industry people who would love to help out getting these guys connected to something faster.

http://www.nznog.org/

Web site with details of every provider in the country... and it's got a mailing list that anyone can join ffs. It's not hard.

The govt aren't even trying to fix this problem at all.





Geekzone is a community forum. Yes anyone can join, but i'm not sure it helps joe-public as not everyone 'gets' how a web forum works at a community level.  It's for the more IT savvy.

NZNOG is an industry forum for Network Operators. It's actually not aimed at Joe-Public and whilst anyone can subscribe, and is welcome to do so, its value gets diluted; remember it's aimed at network operators, not network consumers.

What would solve everything would be if folks actually communicated the honest truth when approached by customers or potential customers.  In this case Telecom customer service didn't do adequate checking and made some blanket statements without explaining the caveats - which are quite fair. ADSL is a 'best effort' service and there's no garuntees as to service or performance, even once it's fitted :(




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  Reply # 490507 7-Jul-2011 11:30
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To me the issue is that the customers did all they could to check, were told they could indeed get broadband and only after buying a house (!) did they find out they couldn't.

I've heard several similar cases over the years (including one journalist who moved house before checking on availability. Whoops!) and it really shouldn't be so hard to determine whether or not the network is capable of providing service at a particular address.

Sure, I know speeds might vary, and I know that ports do indeed fill up - but all this information should be available to the customer.

When I move house I want to be able to find out:

1: Availability of service in general (am I too far from the exchange/cabinet);
2: Expected or typical speed of service (based on distance, customer feedback from current customer etc);
3: Availability in particular (is there a waiter list for this particular cabinet/exchange) and if so how long will the wait be/when will I be upgraded;
4: When will I be connected to the UFB (roughly speaking).

I would hope that Telecom Chorus would be making that information available to all RSPs under the new model post-separation. I'm happy to pay for the more detailed information (eg speed) should the need arise but 1, 3 and 4 should be readily available.

Cheers

Paul

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  Reply # 490512 7-Jul-2011 11:40
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Hi Paul, on your point 2, the current Telecom wholesale map indicates VDSL2 coverage area, so will highlight if you are in the 10-12dB attenuation area so should indicate to a CSR that you should get full or near full ADSL2+ performance with a possiblity of better VDSL2 speeds in future.

It would be good if the maps were improved to show the 30dB (roughly 10MB/s) exchange coverage area, they used to and there is still a purple polygon for it, but it now shows nothing, this would give a CSR an better idea of what could be expected.

Cyril

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  Reply # 490514 7-Jul-2011 11:42
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Hi Cyril, dead right... I'd like to see it put in more user friendly terms for the punters though... they don't necessarily understand (or want to understand) that noise levels impacat on performance. They want to be told roughly how fast it is ("Well sir, you're within our 'good quality' range so I'd expect to see between 8 and 12 Mbit/s download speed. Of course, this is indicative only and we'd need to do more testing, but looking at the current property owner's feedback, we haven't had a technical call for several years" etc).

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  Reply # 490523 7-Jul-2011 11:58
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I am assuming that the Telecom Wholesale maps are used by all ISPs who are selling services on Telecom wholesales gear, therefore I would assume it would be a CSR interpreting what the maps say.

I dont know how Telecom currently generate the VDLS2 10-1d2dB polygon, but one assumes its a mix of a guess from district cable maps, and cludge calculation from attenuation figures gathered from the ISAM managment system, obviously they have to weed out figures that show poorly indicating poor house wiring, but it must not be too hard to work out from an address expected attenuation and sync speed in that exchange/feeder/cabinet from the ISAM system reports.

Cyril

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  Reply # 490541 7-Jul-2011 12:22
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I personally think the logistics of providing the information at the certainty level that most people are indicating, would be horrendous, it's open to so many other types of issues.

It's something to strive toward, but I can't see anyone guaranteeing anything ever.

The thing is, telling someone they are likely to be able to get x and then having an issue and providing x-1 or x-x isn't any better than what is happening now. You give people more information, they have higher expectations.

When we moved to our new house internet was a big deal for me, I knocked on a few doors and made friends with my neighbors and asked them if they had broadband and if they could indicate the speeds. Still no guarantee but it gave me enough information to make an informed choice.

I think people need to take responsibility for their own priorities.

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  Reply # 490550 7-Jul-2011 12:39
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networkn: I personally think the logistics of providing the information at the certainty level that most people are indicating, would be horrendous, it's open to so many other types of issues.

It's something to strive toward, but I can't see anyone guaranteeing anything ever.

The thing is, telling someone they are likely to be able to get x and then having an issue and providing x-1 or x-x isn't any better than what is happening now. You give people more information, they have higher expectations.

When we moved to our new house internet was a big deal for me, I knocked on a few doors and made friends with my neighbors and asked them if they had broadband and if they could indicate the speeds. Still no guarantee but it gave me enough information to make an informed choice.

I think people need to take responsibility for their own priorities.


Do you actually think that the "average" (ie not technical) punter understands this? All the marketing from Telecom shows fast stable ADSL. There's nothing to help "average" consumers make informed decisions. Geekzone users aren't your typical user, generally they have a more in depth understanding of the technologies and their limitations.

Most users know as much about broadband/ADSL as I do about shoemaking- what the product does for them, not how it works and what the ins and outs are. They rely on technical advice from the service providers as, in theory, they are the experts about their products and services.

Saying that people need to take personal responsibilty for a service provided by someone else is a little absurd.



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  Reply # 490558 7-Jul-2011 12:50
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BJ, this is a discussion forum.  I see no need to say sorry for picking my post in to bits! :)  In fact I welcome the response!!!

www.sorted.org.nz - sorry, I posted the wrong url.


BlakJak: I doubt the Govt has done much marketing of it at all, but it's well known in ISP circles... and it's easily found via web search.


The lack of govt marketing was my point.  The site is there. The assumption that Telecom should be the point of contact for service is the bit I find silly. 

Do you get annoyed that BNZ doesn't have a branch in Shirley? 





Fair Go is hardly 'government TV', that's a sensationalist statement to make.



Anything on TVNZ is 'government TV' as far as I'm concerned.



Great ideas but for many ISP's Telecom (Wholesale) is still involved.  Worth noting the operational seperation between the Retail and Wholesale arms, and note that the above statements apply to their Retail arm.



Yes.  So we need a web site that shows layer 1 providers in a consumer friendly way.



Just as I suggested earlier, however, >10Mbit on unlicensed spectrum is unlikely.  Thus this will be an expensive option relatively speaking.



Yet ISPs are out there delivering more than 10mbits.


Geekzone is a community forum. Yes anyone can join, but i'm not sure it helps joe-public as not everyone 'gets' how a web forum works at a community level.  It's for the more IT savvy.


In the case of the FG article, clearly those users were very IT savvy.



NZNOG is an industry forum for Network Operators. It's actually not aimed at Joe-Public and whilst anyone can subscribe, and is welcome to do so, its value gets diluted; remember it's aimed at network operators, not network consumers.


Agreed.  And as network op's, if they don't want noise on that list they need to ensure that there are other systems and places for the relevant noise.

Last week I posted a L1HD fault to the list because of the simple failure of the L1HD to do their job.



What would solve everything would be if folks actually communicated the honest truth when approached by customers or potential customers.  In this case Telecom customer service didn't do adequate checking and made some blanket statements without explaining the caveats - which are quite fair. ADSL is a 'best effort' service and there's no garuntees as to service or performance, even once it's fitted :(


No argument there.  It would have been far more helpful if the CSRs from Telecom Retail had simply said 'sorry we don't have service there' and the web site did the same.






Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


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