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140 posts

Master Geek


Topic # 8833 1-Aug-2006 18:15
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"The ministry's discussion paper is simply that, and submissions on its proposals close on August 4" Simon Hendery, The NZ Herald.



So we should know by the end of the week whether WiMax will be a go for Woosh. I for one, hope the Govt. sees sense and allows them to hang on to what it already has and revisit the 2010 end date for current licensees. Then we can, at last, get some movement happening on this front. There are some pretty heavy hitters waiting on this decision so it will be a nail biting wait for those geeky enough among us that lose sleep over a World shattering events such as this.



What do you guys think?

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  Reply # 43082 1-Aug-2006 19:16
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The MED should take back the existing spectrum, rehash the bands and then reallocate them with existing MR holders being given first rights. The existing 2.3Ghz spectrum was never designed for WiMAX, hence Woosh going around trying to acquire MR's from varios owners to get enough spectrum to roll out a network. IMHO this would be very very risk for Woosh as come 2010 a rehash will happen anyway.

Woosh are trying to play hardball with the MED which is not a good idea.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 43083 1-Aug-2006 19:39
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sbiddle: The existing 2.3Ghz spectrum was never designed for WiMAX, hence Woosh going around trying to acquire MR's from varios owners to get enough spectrum to roll out a network. IMHO this would be very very risk for Woosh as come 2010 a rehash will happen anyway.

Woosh are trying to play hardball with the MED which is not a good idea.



The 2.3Ghz spectrum was allocated for Multipoint Distribution Systems, TV and was never going to be economical. The MED should take this into account before trying to cash in on a new deployment for that spectrum otherwise it would just be plain rude and seen as just another cash grab, as this writer seems to be implying

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/10/nz_wimax_specturm_debate/

And more from the MED here, notice the way they intend to rehash the bandwidth. That would really hurt Woosh

http://www.rsm.govt.nz/spp/bwa/discussion/discussion-07.html#P435_36537

Sound more like the Ministry of Economic Destruction to me.

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  Reply # 43090 1-Aug-2006 21:12
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So what are Woosh going to do in 2010 when they have a network in place using borrowed spectrum and the MED then goes ahead with it's rehashing (as they are entitled to do) and then sells it to the highest bidder? WiMAX spectrum could potentially be worth a lot more then that what it is now so it would actually be in the MED's interest to wait however they want to reallocate the spectrum into better blocks now rather than networks be deployed and then possible significant changes to the spectrum occuring in 3 years time. Their logic makes perfect sence to me.

IMHO the only reason Woosh don't want any changes to go ahead is that they simply don't have any cash to purchase spectrum. End of story. They want to be able to use the existing spectrum for 3 years with the hope that WiMAX will give them a viable business model and save them from the same fate as out 5c coins.

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  Reply # 43106 1-Aug-2006 21:23
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I think... the MRs have been allocated since 1990.

Nobody's used them.

They will expire anyway in 2010.

MED intends to reconfigure the frequency band into three 30MHz blocks, which should work much better for WiMAX than the current 8MHz ones - WiMAX gear is set up for 5 and 10MHz channels.

So good on the government for doing something about the "spectrum squatters" - Woosh, Telecom, BCL and Sky TV - but did it really have to take 16 years?




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  Reply # 43126 2-Aug-2006 08:55
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A management right is just that - permission to use a radio band as set out in the terms & conditions of the licence. It's not ownership of the spectrum or permission to transmit anything in the band not set out in the MED spectrum management plan. The current MR's were designed for TV transmission which never eventuated.

Using a hypethetical situation whould you be annoyed if Woosh then decided to use a spare Sky TV UHF TV frequency to use WiMAX at 700MHz which caused TV interference meaning you coudn't get a clear TV picture? Your reasoning says there would be nothing wrong with that.

The reason countries have spectrum management plans and MR's is to ensure that spectrum is used efficiently and doesn't cause interference. Trying to hijack exicting MR's for your own use is just wrong.

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  Reply # 43129 2-Aug-2006 09:25
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sbiddle: Using a hypethetical situation whould you be annoyed if Woosh then decided to use a spare Sky TV UHF TV frequency to use WiMAX at 700MHz which caused TV interference meaning you coudn't get a clear TV picture? Your reasoning says there would be nothing wrong with that.


Errm, are you asking me? Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion based on what I said...




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  Reply # 43133 2-Aug-2006 09:33
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ahh not you Juha meant the original post.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 43138 2-Aug-2006 09:52
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juha: So good on the government for doing something about the "spectrum squatters" - Woosh, Telecom, BCL and Sky TV - but did it really have to take 16 years?






I expect better than this from you Juha. For a start Woosh were not around 16 yrs ago and back then the Govt believed that MDS was the way to go and allocated blocks accordingly. Now we have a company with the gumption to start the ball rolling on WiMax instead of waiting another 4 yrs for the Govt to act. We will see by the weekend what the outcome of the discussion paper is (unless the MED takes months to "analyse" the outcome) and then Woosh can, either, roll out their WiMax network or go bust. The spectrum does need rehashing but there is provision in the act for licence holders to swap blocks to maximise their efficiency. IMHO, I think the 2010 date should be reassessed and moved back to 2025, this will allow the current players room to breathe and encourage investment in WiMax (which, in the instance we are talking about, should be referred to as WiBro for this spectrum)





As for the 700Mhz band. This could be the answer for the "last mile" in rural areas but I don't see that being freed up for use any time soon unless Sky pull the plug on their UHF customers, which, if done right, could be a win win situation for all involved.


Yes, we do need spectrum management but it shouldn't be as crusty and stifling as it has been.

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  Reply # 43140 2-Aug-2006 10:11
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Old Grey Geek: I expect better than this from you Juha. For a start Woosh were not around 16 yrs ago and back then the Govt believed that MDS was the way to go and allocated blocks accordingly. Now we have a company with the gumption to start the ball rolling on WiMax instead of waiting another 4 yrs for the Govt to act. We will see tomorrow or Friday what the outcome of the discussion paper is (unless the MED takes months to "analyse" the outcome) and then Woosh can, either, roll out their WiMax network or go bust. The spectrum does need rehashing but there is provision in the act for licence holders to swap blocks to maximise their efficiency.


The MED site doesn't say when Woosh first acquired the 2.3GHz licenses, but Walker Wireless started operations in 1999, and I can see MRs were obtained in the following years. So... why no WiMAX plans until now?

As for starting the ball rolling on WiMAX, what exactly has Woosh done apart from hoarded spectrum? Done any trials, like Natcom and Callplus? Has Woosh got any WiMAX equipment? Has Woosh asked vendors to tender for equipment? Three and a half years to go on their MRs, Woosh wakes up and says it'll build a nationwide WiMAX network, in a frequency band that isn't optimally configured for it and in which it has to borrow spectrum. Forgive me, but I'll remain sceptical until I see a trial at least.

IMHO I think the 2010 date should be reassessed and moved back to 2025, this will allow the current players room to breathe and encourage investment in WiMax (which, in the instance we are talking about, should be referred to as WiBro for this spectrum)


Wireless Broadband (WiBro) isn't part of the official WiMAX standard. It's a side project Intel has with Korean telcos, mainly for mobile devices.

Yes, we do need spectrum management but it shouldn't be as crusty and stifling as it has been.


Err... letting various companies sit on spectrum for 16 years without using it for anything is crusty and stifling?






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  Reply # 43142 2-Aug-2006 10:23
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juha: Err... letting various companies sit on spectrum for 16 years without using it for anything is crusty and stifling?


Well, yes. Sitting on anything for 16 yrs would make it crusty and stifling ;-)

As for what Woosh has done? you would have to ask Woosh but they certainly done more than just sit on spectrum, they did roll out a significant network when everybody else was wailing about LLU.

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  Reply # 43143 2-Aug-2006 10:29
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Old Grey Geek: Well, yes. Sitting on anything for 16 yrs would make it crusty and stifling ;-)


Indeed :)

As for what Woosh has done? you would have to ask Woosh but they certainly done more than just sit on spectrum, they did roll out a significant network when everybody else was wailing about LLU.


It's not a WiMAX network though... and if it's that significant, why not just continue expanding it and improving on it? WiMAX, especially in the 2.3GHz band is unchartered technology for Woosh. Is there even mass-produced CPE that'll work in the 2.3GHz band and which won't cost $1-2k per customer?






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Master Geek


  Reply # 43146 2-Aug-2006 10:53
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juha: Is there even mass-produced CPE that'll work in the 2.3GHz band and which won't cost $1-2k per customer?


Intel's Rosedale chip will allow for CPEs in around the same price bracket as existing Woosh equipment, this has been talked about since early 2005. Alviron has been shipping similar units since early this year, apparently. Intel are also producing chips for laptops allowing WiMax connectivity without an external CPE.



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  Reply # 43148 2-Aug-2006 11:06
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Old Grey Geek: Alviron has been shipping similar units since early this year.

Sorry I meant "Alvarion" (or was this an excuse to up my post count to 50 :-) )

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  Reply # 43162 2-Aug-2006 17:49
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Hi guys,

Not expressing any views on the rights or wrongs; NZ InfoTech reported Woosh acquired its 2.3GHz rights in 2001. Equipment to transmit WiMax in the 2.3GHz band is not yet on the market, but should be by early next year.

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  Reply # 43164 2-Aug-2006 18:00
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Hi Tom.

I think Walker Wireless got MRs 9 and 11 in 1999 already.




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