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coffeebaron
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  #507616 16-Aug-2011 22:33
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And don't forget a power outage is not the only type of outage you can have. What happens when a tree falls on your POTS copper line. Your corded phone will be no good there.




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rhy7s
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  #507625 16-Aug-2011 22:45
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tdgeek: IMHO I dont really see this as a real issue. Generally (which means mostly, not always) power outages are resolved relatively quickly... it is back on in an hour or two. Yes, it can be worse, but we have laptops which we keep charged, have cellphones, so we are not cut off as may have been the case in the past.

Here in rural Northland it is very rare for a power outage to be resolved that quickly, and when they're long enough not only the fixed line goes down but the cell towers as well (if you can get reception in the first place). With solar dropping in price all the time though hopefully small scale generation will make future networks more robust and keep the light flowing.

 
 
 
 


codyc1515
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  #507633 16-Aug-2011 23:03
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rhy7s: Our phone lines go out within an hour or two of a powercut anyway, I assume there's more power needed at the cabinet these days to power ADSL services? I'd say they used to stay up at least 12-24 hours before we got ADSL in our area.

So why not just disconnect the ADSL services? This brings us to the next dilemma: What about those people on Naked DSL without POTS?

maverick:
Kraven: I was thinking about this the other day and since we're on the topic wonder if anyone else has had similar thoughts... 

Using a UPS is fine, but I find them bulky and they must be fairly inefficient (converting 12V DC to 240V AC and then back to 12V DC through your equipments transformer). Since most gear is 12V DC powered, wouldn't it be better to supply the backup power source directly from a 12V DC battery? 

Surely there must be a "box" out there that can switch between 240V AC mains and a 12V DC backup battery, plus charge the battery without overcharging it and output 12V DC for your ONT/Router/ATA/whatever?


Who says most of the gear is 12V , one of the issues we face was the customer RGW being 5volts (residential gateway) 
 
Most high end routers I have found are 12v with some of the lower end ones being either 5v or 3.3v.

sbiddle: On one hand we have the government extremely unhappy with mobile providers when the briefest of outages has the potential to impact on 111 availability, while there are already fibre installs with no backup option for phones... It really doesn't make sense. 

That is irony.

coffeebaron: And don't forget a power outage is not the only type of outage you can have. What happens when a tree falls on your POTS copper line. Your corded phone will be no good there.

So put the cable underground?

rhy7s:
tdgeek: IMHO I dont really see this as a real issue. Generally (which means mostly, not always) power outages are resolved relatively quickly... it is back on in an hour or two. Yes, it can be worse, but we have laptops which we keep charged, have cellphones, so we are not cut off as may have been the case in the past.

Here in rural Northland it is very rare for a power outage to be resolved that quickly, and when they're long enough not only the fixed line goes down but the cell towers as well (if you can get reception in the first place). With solar dropping in price all the time though hopefully small scale generation will make future networks more robust and keep the light flowing.

I have a very small scale solar backup, its only about 20W and has a 12A/Hour battery but its more than enough for a basic backup.

trig42
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  #507696 17-Aug-2011 09:06
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I was under the impression that there was a requirement (by law) for the phones to be kept going during a power outage, and that Chorus et al. have to come up with a way for phones to continue to operate in a power outage.

I hear that Telecom/Chorus are sourcing CPE that includes battery backup for this very reason. I believe that it is the same for Telstra in Australia.

maverick
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  #507697 17-Aug-2011 09:10
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No incorrect, Chrous and Wholesale are looking at UPS's but what comes out of the UFB reference offering will be the norm.... I would not count On UPS being supplied as standard




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wired
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  #507698 17-Aug-2011 09:11
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There has been talk in the industry about other things that will also require a power supply such as medical alarms and burglar alarms (these usually have their own UPS/batteries) which could lead to a number of UPS systems in a single premises. How will this be handled?

If every premsies in NZ puts in a UPS and the batteries have to be replaced every 5 years, then that 20% of batteries have to be enviromentally friendly disposed of. That's a huge amount to process and I don't see any businesses gearing up for that. I also remember the huge Telecom batteries and wonder what they did with the old ones back then.

When fibre to the home (using VoIP for the telephone) was made available in 2004 very few people took up the option of buying a UPS to power their ONT. That was at a time when the kids didn't own cellphones so there will be more around now. So I expect very few people would bother about getting a UPS now.

I also wonder how many people will bother to maintain a UPS if they did have one. I doubt that people regularly change the batteries in their burglar alarms.

I would like to see developers and new houses be built to cater for these new technologies, maybe with a central UPS or at least surge/spike/filtering protection on suitable circuits. But given they don't even wire to the PTC106 which has been around for some time, for star wiring I won't be holding my breath...

jjnz1
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  #507707 17-Aug-2011 09:23
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wired: 

I also wonder how many people will bother to maintain a UPS if they did have one. I doubt that people regularly change the batteries in their burglar alarms.



Most monitoring companies ie ADT and CHUBB, as part of your contract to them, charge up to $200 per year to service your alarm. This includes changing your battery. Also from my experience a majority of people without monitored alarms (either monitored to companies or personal phones) don't even use their alarm anyway. My guess is that they'll forget about their UPS's, and thats why they won't get changed. Maybe the telco's should lease the gear to the consumer as part of their monthly fee, and have that fee include a yearly battery change?

wired:

I would like to see developers and new houses be built to cater for these new technologies, maybe with a central UPS or at least surge/spike/filtering protection on suitable circuits. But given they don't even wire to the PTC106 which has been around for some time, for star wiring I won't be holding my breath...


I have installed house UPS's to service dedicated power/lighting circuits throughout the house and they are not cheap systems. My guess is that less than 5% of Wellingtonian domestic households have a backup house type UPS system (of course I'm excluding those houses supplemented by alternative means ie wind power)

Also, it depends on the sparky/technician as to whether or not your house is wired as per PTC's. Cheap house, no, good house, most probably.


 
 
 
 


old3eyes
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  #507874 17-Aug-2011 13:00
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coffeebaron: And don't forget a power outage is not the only type of outage you can have. What happens when a tree falls on your POTS copper line. Your corded phone will be no good there.


Would have to be a very large tree as mine is under ground..




Regards,

Old3eyes


wired
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  #507914 17-Aug-2011 13:45
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jjnz1:
Most monitoring companies ie ADT and CHUBB, as part of your contract to them, charge up to $200 per year to service your alarm.


While that sounds like a good idea, my alarm has been monitored by one of those companies for 15 years and they have never been proactive in the maintenance. You would think that they would want more business and drop me a note to say your battery needs changing. It was only when the internal indication told me that there was a problem did I ring them up. Maybe the daily status check was too ancient to support such an indication.

Look forward to the LFC or Chorus being more proactive if they offer it.

maverick
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  #507953 17-Aug-2011 14:31
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wired:
jjnz1:
Most monitoring companies ie ADT and CHUBB, as part of your contract to them, charge up to $200 per year to service your alarm.


Look forward to the LFC or Chorus being more proactive if they offer it.


Don't bet the house on it is all I will say




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coffeebaron
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  #508210 17-Aug-2011 20:28
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old3eyes:
coffeebaron: And don't forget a power outage is not the only type of outage you can have. What happens when a tree falls on your POTS copper line. Your corded phone will be no good there.


Would have to be a very large tree as mine is under ground..

Or digger  




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster and even more now as they are upgrading their rural Conklins. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend $195 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.

 

Cel-Fi supply and installer - boost your mobile phone coverage legally
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


coffeebaron
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  #508211 17-Aug-2011 20:32
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trig42: I was under the impression that there was a requirement (by law) for the phones to be kept going during a power outage, and that Chorus et al. have to come up with a way for phones to continue to operate in a power outage.

I hear that Telecom/Chorus are sourcing CPE that includes battery backup for this very reason. I believe that it is the same for Telstra in Australia.

Also the days of analogue phones will be numbered - if Maverick has his way, we will all have IP phones before long so we can listen to Celine Dion on hold music in full HD voice :)
So do we need a UPS for this too?
 




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster and even more now as they are upgrading their rural Conklins. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend $195 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.

 

Cel-Fi supply and installer - boost your mobile phone coverage legally
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


maverick
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  #508322 18-Aug-2011 06:29
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mmmhhh Celine ... A Canadian goddess (yes I have been to Vegas and saw the Concert)

The management team wouldn't let me put that on MOH , the comments were over my dead body I think Tongue out




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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Lorenceo
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  #508466 18-Aug-2011 11:52
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The NBN roll out in Australia seem to use ONTs with 1-4 ethernet, 2 analogue phone ports and an RF video output.
Threads on whirlpool have stated that ISPs there can provision phone service to either the ports on the ONT, or deliver through VOIP to some connected SIP device.

It's similar in the US with Verizon FiOS. The ONTs have analogue phone ports on them, and have battery backup within their PSUs. If the power goes out, only the phone works in order to save battery life.

I don't know what kind of ports the ONTs here have, but I'd imagine they're similar, if not the same?
From the pictures I've seen they appear to be Alcatel-Lucent 7342 ONT Type I series units?

Assuming they are the same, since the ONTs have backup batteries in their PSUs why don't companies just use the built in ATAs on the ONTs instead of having to provide phone through the internet connection?
Would save some install costs, since customers could just use a normal ethernet router for the internet connection, and have the patch panel for their POTS connect directly to the ONT.

If the ONTs don't have analogue phone ports in them, why do they come with battery backup at all? Seems like a waste of money to me. Instead of including a battery + battery charger for their PSU they could just come with a simple 12v DC PSU like any other consumer router.

Something else to consider with the routers used is their throughput capability. Very few consumer routers can handle 100 megabits, although that is slowly changing with newer and faster hardware.

raytaylor
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  #509597 21-Aug-2011 14:05
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I like what verizon uses for their Fios installs in the USA

Its an ONT + voip ata all in the one unit.
Takes a 12v 8aH battery to keep it going for 4+ hours. 


The roadside cabinets have backup deep cycle batteries in them to keep the naked dsl going
Portable generators can be attached to roadside cabinets for extended outages (when they arent stolen by stupid idiots)


And isp who has equipment at a telephone exchange can opt to have their cage supplied by direct power or via the exchange UPS system of batteries and backup generator. 

5v CPE equipment is just stupid but you can get a 12v to 5v stepdown converter. 

 




Ray Taylor
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