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hotkiwi
69 posts

Master Geek


  #536337 21-Oct-2011 23:44
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Talkiet:
hotkiwi:
DonGould: Cheap - In New Zealand, it is my view that the word has two meanings.

1.  Reflection of quality.
2.  Reflection of price.






Thanks for this Don, excellent and to the point overview.
There were some NZNet bashers here who at the same time ridiculed the people that had them as a provider. they called themselves 'IT professionals'. Good to hear now from a professional with a professional look on things.
Cheaper is not necessarily bad, and 'you get what you pay for' is a stupid adagium. Look for example at @degrees. A cheaper telco company with excellent customer service, a great product and according to the self-crowned IT professionals on this forum stupid customers as they go for the best deal.

Thanks again.


You're making some pretty grand and offensive insinuations there. You just said the IT professionals in this forum think 2 degrees customers are stupid. That's laughably wrong.

As it happens, I have a 2 degrees sim in one of my phones, and I have 2 ADSL connections here at home - one of which is from a budget provider.

You've moved on from NZnet, following one of the best plans which is to vote with your wallet - great. How about not worrying too much about the opinions of people with vast amounts more experience and inside knowledge of the industry and this particular incident.

Cheers - N



You should read what I write.
As customers of NZNet we were compared to being silly to go for the cheapest deal and expect some kind of of service. I countered that by saying that NZNet is not ridiculously cheap. They stated cheap=bad.
In the post that you quote I draw a parallel to 2degrees, which in my opinion is a cheap telco with excellent service and a great product. I did that to make the point that cheap is not necessarily bad. The old boys on this forum had made it clear that cheap is bad (what you pay is what you get). I have never said that they used 2degrees in their arguments.
The people with experience on this forum ridiculed those that are with NZNet for being a customer with them in the first place. It is like laughing about someone who picked a low standard doctor without knowing it.

The moderator called it sarcasm, lets agree with that.

Talkiet
4481 posts

Uber Geek

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  #536339 21-Oct-2011 23:58
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hotkiwi:
You should read what I write.
As customers of NZNet we were compared to being silly to go for the cheapest deal and expect some kind of of service. I countered that by saying that NZNet is not ridiculously cheap. They stated cheap=bad.
In the post that you quote I draw a parallel to 2degrees, which in my opinion is a cheap telco with excellent service and a great product. I did that to make the point that cheap is not necessarily bad. The old boys on this forum had made it clear that cheap is bad (what you pay is what you get). I have never said that they used 2degrees in their arguments.
The people with experience on this forum ridiculed those that are with NZNet for being a customer with them in the first place. It is like laughing about someone who picked a low standard doctor without knowing it.

The moderator called it sarcasm, lets agree with that.


I believe you're ascribing too much to some generally true comments....

For a start, cheap isn't necessarily bad - and someone isn't stupid to choose a cheap option. However, they are being UNREALISTIC if they expect the cheaper, smaller players to have the same resilience in their network, processes, staff, upstream arrangements etc as the larger players.

I use the cheapest CF and SD cards in my cameras and that's not stupid because my cameras take both SD and CF cards at the same time and writes to both.

I have a budget ADSL provider, that's also not stupid because I know what to expect and because connectivity is important to me I also have a connection with a lower monthly allowance with a large provider. As it happens both connections have been stable for a long time but I don't expect my budget provider to have the same response to issues as the large provider.

I have a 2d Simcard because I'm using it in a GPS tracking device and I don't care about a bunch of their services, so long as it can answer a phone call and send a text.

I hope I didn't ridicule anyone for using NZNet personally - although I would probably ridicule someone for expecting the same level of performance and SUPPORT from ANY budget provider compared to the established bigger players. Now, I KNOW that anecdotally you _WILL_ be able to find examples of great service from small budget providers, and bad service from large established providers - but on average, it's a simple fact that the big guys throw more resources at making their service more reliable with better support. Some small guys do a great job with simple support but wouldn't for example have a nationwide set of service agents with 24*7 support contracts for the important parts of their network.

Cheers - N




--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


 
 
 
 


bellyfrog

99 posts

Master Geek


  #536340 22-Oct-2011 00:06
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Regardless of who said what about NZNet being cheap etc, what I'm more concerned about is if there is actually any verified information about NZNet and their company troubles.

People are referencing failure to pay/debts etc, for which the only source I've seen is the pastie.org one, which could be the ramblings of literally anyone. The "Source" used in the techday article was clearly the same source.

So as far as anyone who has any actual knowledge of this matter, I haven't really seen any credible information about whether they actually have left several providers with debts etc.

Ragnor
8035 posts

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  #536347 22-Oct-2011 00:42
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Yeah the claims about them being disconnected by vibe due to bad debts and turned down by other providers are indeed un-verified at this stage.

Would Maxnet have agreed to supply them with international/domestic transit if they had a history of bad debts?

Seems unlikely.





insane
2416 posts

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Subscriber

  #536355 22-Oct-2011 04:38
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Ragnor: Yeah the claims about them being disconnected by vibe due to bad debts and turned down by other providers are indeed un-verified at this stage.

Would Maxnet have agreed to supply them with international/domestic transit if they had a history of bad debts?

Seems unlikely.



The guys from NZnet have been very open with us and have explained the situation quite clearly. We spent hours helping them get through some tough technical roadblocks, other businesses have too and it seems they are once again on the right track.

The techday article yesterday mentioned that we started to sell them bandwidth as if it was some new arrangement, we've been doing this for months now, but what we did do was try help with getting their Website/DNS servers etc up and running using their IP address ranges. They have more than one upstream provider and it seems there was some sort of 'issue' with the other one.

They have shown they have the ability to settle their accounts without issue, so as far as our crystal ball goes they don't seem to be going down, but rather recovering from a fairly major setback. I can't and won't comment about any business they have with other companies as I simply don't know what's going on.

So yes, while some users had up to 3 days of internet connectivity issues, I can assure you that most of us at some time have had more downtime on DSL than that due to a line issue or some provisioning bungle with an ISP. downtime is downtime so I think people are getting a little excited because it was the ISP this time with the issue.

bellyfrog

99 posts

Master Geek


  #536370 22-Oct-2011 09:56
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Thank you for shedding some light on the issue, and as I suspected that "source" sounded rather weak.

nzsparky
13 posts

Geek


  #536377 22-Oct-2011 10:22
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Its all very well hearing from other people whats going on with nznet.

You said this I said this, What do you believe??  I have not heard one word from them as a customer but we are billing you in ten days time. Atleast some one on NZnet could front up on here about the real deal.

 
 
 
 


DonGould
3892 posts

Uber Geek


  #536387 22-Oct-2011 11:22
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nzsparky: Its all very well hearing from other people whats going on with nznet.

You said this I said this, What do you believe??  I have not heard one word from them as a customer but we are billing you in ten days time. Atleast some one on NZnet could front up on here about the real deal.


NZS, when dealing with a small provider with a problem like this things normally unfold...

1. Get network back on line.
2. Review disaster.
3. Consider how to approach customers
4. Address redress

At this point I'm sure the provider is considering how they're going to deal with you.  I very much doubt that they don't have the message that they've made a big stuff up which has cost them good will.

From their point of view, this has cost you some trouble and might cost you a couple of hundred dollars depending on what you choose to do. On the other hand, it could have made a dent in their income that means they'll all be taking pay cuts and having to borrow from a bank to cover business cash flow for a long while.

With all due respect, you've been enjoying the fruit of their focus to bring you a 'better value service' for a while.

I think you're outstanding for supporting a small guy, I really do. :)

At the same time, I think you have to keep your losses in perspective with theirs.

If I was them, I'd be feeling very very stressed about this problem and that honestly impacts on your ability to focus on dealing with angry upset customers.

At this point, if you want this puppy to live though this then we all have to use soft hands to nurture it back into life or prepare a black suit.

Personally I prefer the nurture approach as black does not look as good on me. :)

D






Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


BlakJak
794 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #536388 22-Oct-2011 11:25
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Talkiet's post above is very accurate and worth paying attention to.

I've never been an NZNet customer, but I do some tech work for a company that does, and they've had what I would rate as pretty poor service from them when they've had cause to engage. It's the old story of 'no news is good news' and the result that generally positive feedback is hard to find (as good service should be condition 'normal') but bad feedback, when developed, can go viral.

I've also got some insiders knowledge regarding NZNet and the ISPs they've done direct business with, but due to the fact I have signed confidentiality agreements, I will not disclose in public what I know. I expect you'll find the same position applies to anyone who actually has 'hard facts', so i'm afraid that rumour and innuendo is going to form a large part of the discussion - until one of the parties involved fronts-up with a statement.

It definately would be nice to see NZNet pony up and be frank, as downtime like this is almost unprecedented.

(And for the record I pay a little more per month to maintain an internet connection with an ISP who provide me with reliable service and a support team that I know i'll get a straight answer from. Agreeing solidly with Talkiet; the smaller/cheaper outfits are not necessarily going to have the resilience and redundancy (and perhaps resource) of the slightly more expensive players.... if you turn over less money, you have less to invest in both people and infrastructure, knowing that operational costs and circuit costs are in large part consistent across the industry.)




No signature to see here, move along...

bellyfrog

99 posts

Master Geek


  #536391 22-Oct-2011 11:39
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(And for the record I pay a little more per month to maintain an internet connection with an ISP who provide me with reliable service and a support team that I know i'll get a straight answer from. Agreeing solidly with Talkiet; the smaller/cheaper outfits are not necessarily going to have the resilience and redundancy (and perhaps resource) of the slightly more expensive players.... if you turn over less money, you have less to invest in both people and infrastructure, knowing that operational costs and circuit costs are in large part consistent across the industry.)


What kind of speed/data usage do you get from this ISP you speak of?

bellyfrog

99 posts

Master Geek


  #536393 22-Oct-2011 11:43
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And FYI from my experiences prior to this with NZNet they have all been positive. I've called them a few times and you don't have to wait on hold for long, they have support staff who understand English, and always provided prompt help. Similarly for email support they have always replied in a timely manner and been helpful. The only downside to their support is not having 24/7 phone lines. But again, they are not the only ISP here to have a 9-5 tech support.

Obviously this major outage has caused a lot of problems and their customer service has been horrible over the past week but I think we should wait to see what kind of reaction they have to customers after getting everything sorted out. Hopefully we will hear something from them after the weekend.

equilor
65 posts

Master Geek


  #536400 22-Oct-2011 12:00
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i still have no phone with nznet. very VERY disappointed.

equilor
65 posts

Master Geek


  #536402 22-Oct-2011 12:06
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insane:
Ragnor: Yeah the claims about them being disconnected by vibe due to bad debts and turned down by other providers are indeed un-verified at this stage.

Would Maxnet have agreed to supply them with international/domestic transit if they had a history of bad debts?

Seems unlikely.



The guys from NZnet have been very open with us and have explained the situation quite clearly. We spent hours helping them get through some tough technical roadblocks, other businesses have too and it seems they are once again on the right track.

The techday article yesterday mentioned that we started to sell them bandwidth as if it was some new arrangement, we've been doing this for months now, but what we did do was try help with getting their Website/DNS servers etc up and running using their IP address ranges. They have more than one upstream provider and it seems there was some sort of 'issue' with the other one.

They have shown they have the ability to settle their accounts without issue, so as far as our crystal ball goes they don't seem to be going down, but rather recovering from a fairly major setback. I can't and won't comment about any business they have with other companies as I simply don't know what's going on.

So yes, while some users had up to 3 days of internet connectivity issues, I can assure you that most of us at some time have had more downtime on DSL than that due to a line issue or some provisioning bungle with an ISP. downtime is downtime so I think people are getting a little excited because it was the ISP this time with the issue.
for some users its been more than 3 days. i had to respond. i have had no phone with nznet since monday. and my net keeps cutting out. but has been stable since friday [fingers crossed]
some people are still having issues.  

BlakJak
794 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  #536406 22-Oct-2011 12:35
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bellyfrog:
(And for the record I pay a little more per month to maintain an internet connection with an ISP who provide me with reliable service and a support team that I know i'll get a straight answer from. Agreeing solidly with Talkiet; the smaller/cheaper outfits are not necessarily going to have the resilience and redundancy (and perhaps resource) of the slightly more expensive players.... if you turn over less money, you have less to invest in both people and infrastructure, knowing that operational costs and circuit costs are in large part consistent across the industry.)


What kind of speed/data usage do you get from this ISP you speak of?


ICONZ. Good speeds. They're an ISP geared for Business customers first, so their off-peak bandwidth availability is good, they have a 24/7 local tech support team, they have staff who lurk on this forum, they're active on Twitter and readily engagable. Plans are here: http://www.iconz.net/internet/adsl-broadband

(So what if I am formerly of their NOC? What of it? :P)

I have the advantage that i'm not a leech. 30Gigs/month is adequate for my needs.

I'm not saying I wouldn't change ISP down track if a too-good-to-be-ignored deal comes down track. Right now i'm satisfied.
Oh and I can always tether my phone (Vodafone) for an alternate-option should they have a meltdown; I host my own mail services and such so I am only dependent on my connectivity provide for Internet and will use whoever i'm on, for DNS. (But i run my own DNS platform too if I need it.)

I've worked for 4 ISPs and been a customer of at least two more than that since the late 90s, so I like to think I have a fair idea of what's reasonable to expect. Even the smallest of those (Quicksilver, now part of Woosh) delivered better service than NZNet appear to be at present.





No signature to see here, move along...

bellyfrog

99 posts

Master Geek


  #536412 22-Oct-2011 12:50
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BlakJak:
bellyfrog:
(And for the record I pay a little more per month to maintain an internet connection with an ISP who provide me with reliable service and a support team that I know i'll get a straight answer from. Agreeing solidly with Talkiet; the smaller/cheaper outfits are not necessarily going to have the resilience and redundancy (and perhaps resource) of the slightly more expensive players.... if you turn over less money, you have less to invest in both people and infrastructure, knowing that operational costs and circuit costs are in large part consistent across the industry.)


What kind of speed/data usage do you get from this ISP you speak of?


ICONZ. Good speeds. They're an ISP geared for Business customers first, so their off-peak bandwidth availability is good, they have a 24/7 local tech support team, they have staff who lurk on this forum, they're active on Twitter and readily engagable. Plans are here: http://www.iconz.net/internet/adsl-broadband

(So what if I am formerly of their NOC? What of it? :P)

I have the advantage that i'm not a leech. 30Gigs/month is adequate for my needs.

I'm not saying I wouldn't change ISP down track if a too-good-to-be-ignored deal comes down track. Right now i'm satisfied.
Oh and I can always tether my phone (Vodafone) for an alternate-option should they have a meltdown; I host my own mail services and such so I am only dependent on my connectivity provide for Internet and will use whoever i'm on, for DNS. (But i run my own DNS platform too if I need it.)

I've worked for 4 ISPs and been a customer of at least two more than that since the late 90s, so I like to think I have a fair idea of what's reasonable to expect. Even the smallest of those (Quicksilver, now part of Woosh) delivered better service than NZNet appear to be at present.



That's nice, however I resent being labelled a leech for needing a 200gb package! We have two people who work from home here, plus we do plenty of online gaming and youtubing etc. 30gb is never going to cut it in my household :P

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