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sbiddle
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  #1524321 1-Apr-2016 22:07
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ojala:

 

One more think, Apple style..   A friend was in Zugspitze, Germany, skiing.

 

 

Pretty good results on the T-Mobile's "LTE Max" network there.   Can you imagine doing 290 Mbit/s on a mobile network?

 

 

 

 

Easily achievable on Vodafone NZ.

 

 


ojala

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  #1524808 2-Apr-2016 20:11
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sbiddle:

 

Easily achievable on Vodafone NZ.

 

 

 

Good to hear 200+ Mbit/s is normal on their 4G network.  I checked their web site a while ago but they only mentioned the frequency support.  Here it's the opposite, you need to dig deeper to find what frequencies are used but the regulator requires the carriers to give good indication of the actual performance.

 

Here in Finland the 300-450 Mbit/s 4G's are not that common, just in a few cities but I guess in Germany Deutsche Telecom has done a bit more.  Only one of our three carriers even tells the 300 4G coverage.

 

quickymart:

 

I can imagine it, but I can also imagine prices here would skyrocket for 100% nationwide coverage.

 

 

100% probably not.  Vodafone NZ advertises 88% of Kiwis for their 4G network, which is "enough" I'd say.

 

Here Elisa (the biggest) advertised 97% about a year ago.   DNA said 90+% a year ago and 99% by end of this year.   Sonera says they had over 95% by end of last year. The local regulator requires all carriers to reach 97% by end of 2018 anyway.

 

 

The Elisa map shows that they haven't really bothered to build 4G up in the north, just 3G.  That blueish 4G area is 97+% of the 5.5mil population.  We don't have mountains like NZ does but the country size and population is pretty much the same, even the size of the biggest cities.  We might have more sparsely populated rural areas as people are more spread across the country (vs. south island).

 

 

Meanwhile Sonera has built 4G up in the north as well.  They'll share the northern 4G network with DNA, the third carrier, as mentioned earlier.  The different built-out can also be due to the regulation as back in the 90's they were incumbents and a carrier with a dominant position got requirements to provide service in the area.  Those old rules are still in place even though you can't even buy a landline any more..

 

All carriers cover the coastline and archipelagos quite well as they are more important than the north.

 

All the carriers are profitable and do their uncapped things for ARPU around 23€/month (<40 NZD).


 
 
 
 


NonprayingMantis
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  #1524816 2-Apr-2016 20:25
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sbiddle:

ojala:


One more think, Apple style..   A friend was in Zugspitze, Germany, skiing.



Pretty good results on the T-Mobile's "LTE Max" network there.   Can you imagine doing 290 Mbit/s on a mobile network?


 



Easily achievable on Vodafone NZ.


 



Is that a theoretically easily achievable? Or do you mean customers on Vodafone nz regularly get 200Mbps+ speed test? Because I've never seen one.

sbiddle
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  #1524855 2-Apr-2016 21:01
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NonprayingMantis:
sbiddle:

 

ojala:

 

 

 

One more think, Apple style..   A friend was in Zugspitze, Germany, skiing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty good results on the T-Mobile's "LTE Max" network there.   Can you imagine doing 290 Mbit/s on a mobile network?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Easily achievable on Vodafone NZ.

 

 

 

 

 



Is that a theoretically easily achievable? Or do you mean customers on Vodafone nz regularly get 200Mbps+ speed test? Because I've never seen one.

 

I've seen real world results in the vicinity of 300Mbps, and if you've got a cat9 device supporting 20+5 in 1800 and 2600 then you should be able to get good results on a supported device and site. With 700 rolling out in the big cities now CA across 700, 1800 20+5 and 2600 should see some pretty impressive real world figures when CA is supported across all 3 bands.

 

At the end of the day however we all know speed doesn't determine the quality of the network!

 

 

 

 


ojala

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  #1524872 2-Apr-2016 21:14
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sbiddle:

 

I've seen real world results in the vicinity of 300Mbps, and if you've got a cat9 device supporting 20+5 in 1800 and 2600 then you should be able to get good results on a supported device and site. With 700 rolling out in the big cities now CA across 700, 1800 20+5 and 2600 should see some pretty impressive real world figures when CA is supported across all 3 bands.

 

At the end of the day however we all know speed doesn't determine the quality of the network! 

 

 

Here we have interesting development that it's not only the coverage that matters but speed as well -- depending on the user.

 

Obviously for average mobile phone person it's about coverage and how full the network is.  From that part life's good, for example in my books 4G network that doesn't deliver 50+ Mbit/s at a random urban location and random time isn't particularly good.

 

However we have an increasing number of "fixed" users as well.  The fiber isn't available everywhere, ADSL has it's limits in less urban areas and even bad 4G outperforms it easily.

 

So more and more people in difficult places are switching from fixed broadband to 4G and the carriers even encourage this.  The 800/900 MHz 4G has made this quite doable as the cells are bigger.

 

This is where the problems begin.  The lower frequency cells also have less capacity and if an area has issues with fixed broadband, it will have more 4G users moving to mobile broadband.  So we've got increasing number of people who complain that while they can get 50 Mbit/s in the morning just fine, it's somewhere at 10-20 Mbit/s in the evening.  As the 4G usage is fixed, not mobile, they only care about the performance, not the coverage.

 

The other reason for this movement is that the uncapped 4G is usually half the price of the ADSL fixed broadband.

 

 


ojala

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  #1557640 23-May-2016 05:32
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What's happening?  Not much..

 

In the capital region the cable TV internet has been quite popular as it's widely available, even we have it despite having three different fiber providers.

 

Until now they've been offering up to 350/20 speeds but this month they upgraded the network to Docsis 3.1 with new speeds.  It's part of their process to bring the HFC to the fiber speeds so that they can offer reasonably uniform service to all the 600.000 households they connect.

 

HFC is available as 50/5, 200/20 or 1000/100 now.  The price, uncapped, is from 25€ to 50€/month (41 to 83 NZD/month).

 

The initial reports for the 1000/100 service are reasonably good, people getting 900+ downstream speeds although many have had to call the customer service to check for missing channels to get the full performance, especially for the upstream.

 

From business perspective I think the reasoning behind all this development is two fold.  The HFC service has been popular and it's really convenient, if you need a broadband internet access, you'll visit one of their stores and while you walk back home the service is activated.  It also "moves" to your new place easily.  BUT they've lost market share due to the increased number of fiber connected homes.

 

The other carriers have switched their focus on FTTN, providing VDSL2 (hopefully G.Fast soon, Nokia's acquisition fo Alcatel-Lucent is good for the market) local loops as most of the commercially viable fiber destinations have now been connected.  Even the loudest "I've got this lousy ADSL2 friends" have finally moved to VDSL now.  Fiber offerings are moving to the gigabit territory, I see more and more gigabit being offered.

 

 

 

In the mobile sector there's a new MVNA.  The MVNA market had pretty much died over the years.  The new one uses the "third network" and they offer a three-SIM bundle that has a total of 12GB data included for 18€/month (30 NZD).  I think they try to attract people with two users and an iPad to start with..  You can add uncapped data, more SIM's etc but at least I couldn't justify the service for our needs.  I rather have a prepaid on the iPads and other similar devices and unlimited and uncapped everything on our mobiles.  Plus I'm not a big fan of their network.  I think the market is too competitive for any MVNA to make it.

 

 

 

We are back at work now, "halted" the 3-year-plus travels for a while.  I've been expanding my skills working for a private cloud setup with 100.000's of cores in multiple DC's, multiple continents.  Love using all my networking skills in a new context and learning new things every day.

 

 


ojala

188 posts

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  #1559728 25-May-2016 22:19
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Forgot to mention that we actually got a new, direct submarine cable (and a pretty much a monopoly on installing new ones as Nokia acquired Alcatel-Lucent :-).

 

C-lion1 is a new submarine cable directly from Finland to Germany.  Until now all the capacity has gone through Sweden (with backup routes through the Baltics).  There's never been lack of capacity (a lot of Russian traffic is also going through) but it's been a political issue.  For example Swedish secret police has the right to tap the traffic. We love the Swedes but..

 

The new cable is owned 50% by the government and the rest is insurance companies and a major local bank.  The Finnish end terminates in a military area.

 

It's a typical 1170 km 8-fiber pair cable, each up to confirmed 18 Tbit/s capacity for a total of 144 Tbit/s.

 

http://opticalconnectionsnews.com/2016/04/alcatel-lucent-submarine-networks-cinia-achieve-record-capacity-144-tbits-c-lion1-cable/

 

I'm not aware of any ISP traffic going over the new cable but they've got several DC contracts so far, including one to connect Equinix in Frankfurt and Helsinki.  If any of the Artic cables to connect Europe directly to Asia become a reality, there will be substantial demand as well.

 

 


 
 
 
 


ojala

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  #1617638 26-Aug-2016 02:04
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We are moving to a new place next month.  As expected, for every place we've looked into, I've always checked what the broadband options are.  The good news is that pretty much every one has had decent availability.

 

A typical trend is that one carrier is preferred and they offer a discounted price, like our free 20/2 and 100/10 for just 15 NZD/month -- but if no one is active, there isn't a preferred carrier.  Other carriers then sell their services at list price with occasional campaigns, especially the faster speed are pretty much always on offer and if you choose to go for a 24 month deal, there's a noticeable discount.

 

My current "free" carrier doesn't have fiber at the new address, just HFC.  They do EuroDOCSIS 3.0 and offer "1G" that is 400-1000/40-100, "200" that is 80-200/8-20, and "50" that is 30-50/2-5.  Prices vary from 25€/month to 50€/month (39 to 77 NZD/month).  This is pretty standard service and available pretty much everywhere, even in our current home even though we've got three fiber providers as well.

 

The second carrier has only FTTC, 10/10, 50/10 or 100/10 for 29€ to 40€/month.  This is most likely VDSL based.

 

The third carrier, the one doing my current gigabit connection, has proper fiber to the new place.  They offer 10/10, 50/50 and 100/100 from 10€ to 20€/month with a 24 month deal, the first 12 months are this rate and the remaining 12 months +10€/month.

 

There is no connection fee.

 

As before, there's RJ45's to the house and there's some proper RJ45's around the rooms as well.  This should make networking the new place quite easy.  The place has been remodelled about 10 years ago when they did the cabling.  The real estate lady talked about the cabinet having a place for wireless access point -- I didn't say anything about my preferences to tune the place for best possible 802.11ac WiFi :-)

 

My choice is pretty obvious unless I learn something new but of course I'm a bit disappointed to downgrade from 1000/500 to 100/100.

 

 


ojala

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  #1677124 25-Nov-2016 06:35
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So we moved to a new place in September..  my old carrier was happy to cancel the subscription, with only one week notice "because we are moving and they cannot offer gigabit service" and they didn't even mention the iPad Mini I got when I ordered their broadband a year ago.

 

Everything went very smoothly.  I decided to go for the HFC "Gigabit service", I ordered it online so that I could test drive it for 14 days.  I picked up the cable modem, connected it and it worked smoothly right away.  That's the beauty of HFC, you just pick up the modem and walk home.  "It just works", just like Apple used to..

 

 

It's a downgrade for sure but I think we'll live with that :-)  HFC has more latency than the fiber we had before.  The nice thing about the new place is that the walls are less thick and I can have a proper WiFi all over the place.  With 802.11ac I can do over 500 Mbit/s to the InterWeb using WiFi.

 

The price with the modem rental is about 55€/month, 83 NZD/month.  Uncapped.

 

They do DHCPv6-PD so I had to change my configuration a bit from the old 6rd setup.

 

Looking at my RIPE Atlas graphs, the connection has been pretty stable and while I've planned to add a 4G backup, there's been no need to.

 

 

 

Meanwhile a friend sent a few 4G Speedtests from two of the local carriers..

 

 

 

My current mobile subscription is capped at 100 Mbit/s (uncapped data) so I got this weird urge to think about upgrading the subscription..  I can't explain why and what the hell I would need that 250 Mbit/s 4G for :-)

 


Marketwise same old same old.  There seems to be quite a bit of activity on the FTTN + VDSL front.  I don't really know that many people any more who don't have at least 100 Mbit/s fixed broadband at home.

 

From the regulator's statistics, about 30% of the fixed broadband is now at least 100 Mbit/s across the country.  The 10 Mbit/s percentage doesn't go down because so many apartment buildings have it as the standard free option.   DSL is now below 50%, 25% has direct ethernet connection at home, another 25% has HFC, 5.5% is "fiber".  I believe the statistics aren't quite accurate because typically the customer interface is just ethernet and the device to give ethernet out of the fiber is part of the carrier's infrastructure.  I never had fiber, my 1000/500 was ethernet.

 

The number of landlines is down to below 200.000.  You cannot order them any longer and in the last two years it has dropped from 300k to 200k so in a few years we'll see the end of that technology.

 

 

 

Any suggestions how to stay connected in New Zealand?   What is the best 4G with the most decent data caps/packages?

 

We'll be down in NZ from early until late December and then head to Australia for about a month.  I will be working remotely so I need to access the network on a daily basis..

 

 


Lias
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  #1677267 25-Nov-2016 10:41
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ojala:

 

 That's the beauty of HFC, you just pick up the modem and walk home.  "It just works", just like Apple used to..

 

 

Far from that in NZ, only the carrier supplied modem and must be technician installed.





ojala

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  #1677733 26-Nov-2016 00:50
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Lias:

 

ojala:

 

 That's the beauty of HFC, you just pick up the modem and walk home.  "It just works", just like Apple used to..

 

 

Far from that in NZ, only the carrier supplied modem and must be technician installed.

 

 

I had similar experience in Australia (I probably mentioned it earlier here), hit me by surprise.

 

One of the true selling points for HFC is that it can be delivered instantly.  Why not take advantage of it?

 

Here they sell you Sagemcom F-3686AC  EUroDocsis3.0 modem for 5.25€/month, 24 month deal for a total of 126€.  A local big electronics store is selling the same device for 149.90€.  I'm not sure what will happen if you try to use something that they are not familiar with but at least with the supported devices the market itself is free, there's even used units for sale.

 

I'm not sure what one needs to do get to get a technician to visit.  You can pay for all kinds of installation support of course but for example if you have an issue with your connection, report it and they investigate, they'll charge you 80€ for the technician's visit if it was your fault or within your building.  All the carriers are subcontracting the installation work, it's not their selling point and it's better for the user because often the same company does the work in an area for all the carriers -- they know the equipment at basements and street corners.

 

For example when I ordered the 1000/100 fiber connection last year, it wasn't working when we came home.  I called the carrier's number, they forwarded the report to the company who had connected it.  There was a note about our address (93-94 was our real address, carrier's system knew only about 94 and cable was labelled 93), a technician visited the patch panel, called me and I confirmed it works now.  I never saw her, she never came to our house.

 

 


BarTender
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  #1678120 27-Nov-2016 07:26
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ojala:

 

 

 

I had similar experience in Australia (I probably mentioned it earlier here), hit me by surprise.

 

One of the true selling points for HFC is that it can be delivered instantly.  Why not take advantage of it?

 

Here they sell you Sagemcom F-3686AC  EUroDocsis3.0 modem for 5.25€/month, 24 month deal for a total of 126€.  A local big electronics store is selling the same device for 149.90€.  I'm not sure what will happen if you try to use something that they are not familiar with but at least with the supported devices the market itself is free, there's even used units for sale.

 

I'm not sure what one needs to do get to get a technician to visit.  You can pay for all kinds of installation support of course but for example if you have an issue with your connection, report it and they investigate, they'll charge you 80€ for the technician's visit if it was your fault or within your building.  All the carriers are subcontracting the installation work, it's not their selling point and it's better for the user because often the same company does the work in an area for all the carriers -- they know the equipment at basements and street corners.

 

For example when I ordered the 1000/100 fiber connection last year, it wasn't working when we came home.  I called the carrier's number, they forwarded the report to the company who had connected it.  There was a note about our address (93-94 was our real address, carrier's system knew only about 94 and cable was labelled 93), a technician visited the patch panel, called me and I confirmed it works now.  I never saw her, she never came to our house.

 

 

The reason why cable operators require a tech visit is because they often disconnect the house from the cable network if you disconnect from their service. Saturn/TCL/Vodafone most certainly do on their poles. Otherwise RF interference from people "just plugging stuff into their cable network" can cause all sorts of trouble. It's certainly not like DSL where you only have a point to point connection back to the DSLAM, it's a shared medium with passive taps that you can't remotely go in a shutdown a bad port you need to send a tech out to climb a pole and find where the idiot lives.

 

The other assumption I would make is that you would be living in a apartment / MDU / block of houses all built the same that had been properly wired for cable when it was built/retrofitted with with "Cable TV" outlets in sensible places of the house rather than in NZ where the vast majority of houses are standalone dwellings where no two houses are built or installed the same.

 

Vodafone NZ have recently rolled out Docsis 3.1 aka "FibreX" but as they manage the whole network themselves and haven't been forced to unbundle / provide services to the competition then they own the complete stack end to end.





and


ojala

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  #1678574 27-Nov-2016 23:46
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BarTender:

 

The reason why cable operators require a tech visit is because they often disconnect the house from the cable network if you disconnect from their service. Saturn/TCL/Vodafone most certainly do on their poles. Otherwise RF interference from people "just plugging stuff into their cable network" can cause all sorts of trouble. It's certainly not like DSL where you only have a point to point connection back to the DSLAM, it's a shared medium with passive taps that you can't remotely go in a shutdown a bad port you need to send a tech out to climb a pole and find where the idiot lives.

 

The other assumption I would make is that you would be living in a apartment / MDU / block of houses all built the same that had been properly wired for cable when it was built/retrofitted with with "Cable TV" outlets in sensible places of the house rather than in NZ where the vast majority of houses are standalone dwellings where no two houses are built or installed the same.

 

Vodafone NZ have recently rolled out Docsis 3.1 aka "FibreX" but as they manage the whole network themselves and haven't been forced to unbundle / provide services to the competition then they own the complete stack end to end.

 

 

Ok, makes sense.  Here HFC is mostly regional monopolies, pay-tv has never been huge, and they don't offer the network for competition.  If there's any TV competition, it's from satellite or DVB-T.  Pay-TV competition comes from the Interweb now, all the carriers have their packages and you can subscribe to them no matter which ISP you use.

 

We do have couple of differences though, first we don't use much poles here.  Everything is underground.  I doubt any cable TV carrier her has actually used poles for their TV cabling, only power and telco companies and both are dismantling their poles.  Telcos are moving people to 4G and power companies are putting their cables underground as they have to pay to customers for power outages.

 

Another difference is that as HFC Interweb has been often faster and easier to deploy than DSL, it has been reasonably popular and the HFC networks have been turned into very dense star networks over the last 15 years.  We also have this strange habit of replacing water and sewage pipes every 50 years so many apartment buildings have turned their TV cabling into star design.  I guess all this makes the HFC interference issue less relevant and they are never fast to disconnect.

 

So while traditionally HFC has been a shared media, it's surprisingly little so now.  As I had some old HFC network memories, that's why I wanted to have the 14-day trial on my new connection.  I didn't trust 100% that they can do a gigabit service and I do remember some interference stories from the 90's.

While we historically had a very aggressive regulator that made competition alive (we've also had a large number of telcos, 100+ years ago already over 250 of them!) and made sure that carriers had access to other's networks, we are now practically taking steps back.  While the carriers do sell fiber to each other, the pricing only works for corporate customers.  Copper has become irrelevant, HFC's are not accessible by competition.  To be in the market, one has to install your own fiber.  Perhaps a relief is that 4G is competitive enough for broadband due to the unlimited caps.

 


That FiberX Max looks great, great to see unlimited data at high speeds available in NZ.  I'm still surprised that they also try to sell FibreX with home phone.  With so many mobile plans in NZ now including unlimited NZ/Aus calls, is there any market for that or is it some regulatory quirk left around?

 

 

 

 


Screeb
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  #1679070 28-Nov-2016 19:43
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ojala:
That FiberX Max looks great, great to see unlimited data at high speeds available in NZ.  I'm still surprised that they also try to sell FibreX with home phone.  With so many mobile plans in NZ now including unlimited NZ/Aus calls, is there any market for that or is it some regulatory quirk left around?

 

 

 

 

There are still many people with POTS lines, though increasingly rare. Mostly older people, although almost everyone has a mobile phone these days anyway. The main draw I think is unlimited "free" local calling. It's a bit dearer to pay for a mobile plan with unlimited calls (e.g. $10 on top of broadband for POTS vs $50-60 mobile plan). I would expect this to change pretty soon, and POTS should die out quite fast.

 

Vodafone are selling home phones because it's probably a very high markup product for them, given that they own the network and already have the infrastructure. Every other ISP has to buy POTS access wholesale from Chorus (though lots are moving to VoIP these days). It's likely that they will move to VoIP in the near future.

 

Fibre here (as opposed to "FibreX" cable) is also unlimited at high speed (gigabit) these days.


ojala

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  #1720361 15-Feb-2017 03:46
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We just returned back to Finland after spending two months down under..  Three weeks in NZ and the rest in Australia (WA and Sydney).

 

In NZ I bought the 4GB Vodafone Travel SIM -- and a few days later had to buy another 8GB one :-)   Overall I was quite happy with Vodafone's network -- I was happy to see 4G in even smaller cities and no coverage in some more rural areas, which I was pretty much expecting.  I assume our phones (iPhone 6S+ and Nexus 6P) covered all the frequencies.

 

I was rather disappointed with the WiFi offered at hotels and other accommodations.  Sometimes it was capped at 1GB/day or limited to speeds defined in Kbit/s, and considering that half an hour Webex call takes half a gig that's not very good (I was working throughout our trip).  Sometimes WiFi was provided by a single AP by the road, pointing towards the accommodation.  Seriously?!   At the end I didn't want to pay for premium Internet access because I didn't expect it to work well enough.   We had quite fine WiFi in a few accommodation, e.g. in Auckland.

 

In Australia I've previously used mostly Optus but now bought an Aldi SIM that uses Telstra's network.  Our short-term rental in Sydney had ADSL connection -- despite the building having VDSL available as well..  That was good enough for all my work needs, can't do much about the latency to Europe.

 

 

 

Meanwhile back at home, looking at the regulator's statistics about 50.000 users switch from DSL to Fiber/Ethernet every 6 months, and about 5.000 switch to HFC (up to gigabit speeds).

 

DNA, the "third carrier", announced interesting statistics in December.

 

Their mobile data usage is the highest in the evening, from 8pm to 10pm.  People use quite a bit of streaming video services over 4G.

 

Already back in August 2016 they announced that they transferred 27 PB of data in their fixed broadband network (they are one of the major HFC providers, about 600.000 subscribers) and 32 PB in mobile network.  They have about 2.7 million mobile subscribers.  So they are actually happy to carry more mobile databits than fixed databits..   My gigabit HFC is from them but I use different mobile carrier.  These numbers tell that an average fixed broadband user uses 450 GB/month.

 

Just in comparison, Telstra has about 17 million subscribers.  When they had the outages last year and offered a day of free data, they transferred almost 2.7 PB that day.  That is 75x less, per subscriber, that DNA is happy to carry.

 

National Broadcasting Company announced that their streaming service put out 16 PB in December.  If you put that into bandwidth, it's 50 Gbit/s 24x7x31.  A lot more if you consider when people actually stream..   When we moved to our current place last autumn, I didn't connect TV antenna cable -- it's still disconnected.  They stream their channels live as well.  Their streaming platform is built on top of AWS and Akamai does the CDN.

 

 


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