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934 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2410921 31-Jan-2020 21:11
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There is an industry-standard definition of ‘perpetual’ licence. A licence is granted to use the software in perpetuity, but does not include a commitment to keep the software updated in perpetuity.

 

as time goes on, the viability of unsupported software continuing to work correctly diminishes, as hardware and operating systems evolve. It is a risk relying on unsupported software, and really limits ability to change underlying hardware / OS, since any change may cause the software to not work on that newer infrastructure.

 

in this case, the op took that risk and lost. However, the supplier should make the patch available - although the late news that the patch was available for 3 years, 2017-2019, does change things from a reasonableness perspective.

 

again, a perpetual licence does not mean it is supported perpetually. By the way, licences software is not owned by the licencee, ownership remains with the licencor.

 

i don’t think the op will get an outcome here at no cost - I would say he’s going to have to acquire new software - that’s my prediction.





BlinkyBill


2149 posts

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  #2411869 3-Feb-2020 11:55
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BlinkyBill:

 

It is a risk relying on unsupported software, and really limits ability to change underlying hardware / OS, since any change may cause the software to not work on that newer infrastructure.

 

 

Thats very much the NZ way of doing things from what Ive seen.
Dont bother upgrading , keep using 10year++ old software (or even software thats from the DOS era)
Then deal with zero direct upgrade options as that software is too old , so the old data/database can no longer be imported .
Also , refuse to pay for the support options from the software company, making a bigger headache down the line .

 

:-)

 

No different where I work .


 
 
 
 


934 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411887 3-Feb-2020 12:59
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I call it “accumulating technical debt”. I make a fair proportion of my revenue remediating technical debt.





BlinkyBill




16389 posts

Uber Geek


  #2411906 3-Feb-2020 14:10
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Handle9:

The licensing servers are part of the support for the software. I'd say this is likely the argument that the manufacturer will make. Given that the software is likely 10 years old (as updates are not relevant to the OP pursuing this) it will be a tricky argument and one I'd say the OP will struggle to win.

 

 

 

The big difference here is that the software manufacturer released a new version of the software that no longer required activation just a couple of years ago, which was still available on their website until about a month ago.  The problems are that they never notified customers about this, so the only time people would have a problem is if thy needed to reinstall the software or their licensing file became corrupt. Then they refused to provide this update to customers who didn't get the chance to download it, as  customers weren't aware they had switched off the activation server,

 

So anything related to the age of the software, or support, or compatibility with software/hardware is irrelevant in this particular case because it does work on compatible hardware and software. Infact I also had it working on windows 10 after I did an upgrade. So that is all a Red Herring, and a distracting from the facts.

 

The fact is that the manufacturer updated the software a couple of years ago so the license no longer requires activation, but then didn't notify customers to download this software.   But instead they are pushing affected people to signup to their cloud service, where they financially benefit significantly.. Literally they could fix it in 5 minutes by just sending me the updated version of the software that doesn't require activation. I think it comes down to a company doing the right thing for the customer and showing goodwill, but because they are an overseas company and a different culture, they seem to be more about making money than looking after the customer. If they had provided it, I would still be positive about their brand, and   I potentially may have considered moving to the cloud service sometime in the future. But the way they have handled this, and their terrible customers service, means that I have essentially now blacklisted them in the future.


267 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411926 3-Feb-2020 15:10
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mattwnz:

 

The big difference here is that the software manufacturer released a new version of the software that no longer required activation just a couple of years ago, which was still available on their website until about a month ago.  The problems are that they never notified customers about this, so the only time people would have a problem is if thy needed to reinstall the software or their licensing file became corrupt. Then they refused to provide this update to customers who didn't get the chance to download it, as  customers weren't aware they had switched off the activation server,

 

 

Were you paying maintenance on the software? If not, then I don't believe the software developer had a requirement to inform you of the update. I suspect that the license you paid for allowed you to use the software for the life of that version. This is common when purchasing software licenses.

 

 

 

mattwnz:

 

So anything related to the age of the software, or support, or compatibility with software/hardware is irrelevant in this particular case because it does work on compatible hardware and software. Infact I also had it working on windows 10 after I did an upgrade. So that is all a Red Herring, and a distracting from the facts.

 

 

I don't think it's distracting as you actually haven't told us many facts.

 

 

 

Have a read through the recent Sonos thread for a similar issue or this one about the Under Armour smart scales




16389 posts

Uber Geek


  #2411935 3-Feb-2020 15:22
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1101:

 

BlinkyBill:

 

It is a risk relying on unsupported software, and really limits ability to change underlying hardware / OS, since any change may cause the software to not work on that newer infrastructure.

 

 

Thats very much the NZ way of doing things from what Ive seen.
Dont bother upgrading , keep using 10year++ old software (or even software thats from the DOS era)
Then deal with zero direct upgrade options as that software is too old , so the old data/database can no longer be imported .
Also , refuse to pay for the support options from the software company, making a bigger headache down the line .

 

:-)

 

No different where I work .

 

 

 

 

It does depend on a range of factors, including whether the software is being used for business or home/non commercial use, which is how I am using the software for personal projects. Or if it is being used for mission critical purposes.

 

There is often nothing wrong with using older software, and infact if it it isn't connected to the internet, old software and OS's are perfectly fine and safe to use . I personally have quite a bit of old software running on virtual machines, and apart from this particular software, all my old software dating back to the 90's potentially is all still usable. Retro computers and tech is also now a big thing. I even have an older version of this affected software that is still usable, as it never required activation, but it doesn't have some features I need. The problem these days is how companies now have control over their software over the cloud, where they can essentially hit a 'kill' switch, and not allow it to then be installed. We were led initially to believe this was to prevent piracy. However in this case, it is essentially being used to force me off it and signup to their cloud service, otherwise they would have provided me with the software update that no longer required activation. The whole software upgrade thing is all about the company making money, esepcailly on mature software that gets very few new fetures. That on one reason why some companies have moved to the subscription model, because people weren't upgrading their software, mainly because there weren't enough new features to warrant paying for an upgrade. So the way companies have gotten around this is by then renting out the software.

 

But cloud computing can sometimes make sense to businesses where the software generates income for them. They don't have to pay a big purchase cost for the software, they are paying a lower rental fee, but overtime this will usually cost a lot more. Also businesses often need ongoing customer support and hand holding. Especially if the users aren't knowledgeable with computers, which is very often the case.  But i am someone who assembles my own computers and have been using PCs since DOS, and windows since the first versions, and I never need to contact support for software, and can usually always troubleshoot problems successfully.
But the problem I have found is that sometimes the regular feature updates on these SAAS software can break things, which wasn't such a problem with the owned versions, as they rarely got any updates, and those updates didn't often provide new features, they were mainly only bug fixes. Whereas updates for cloud software tend to drip feed new features. Windows 10 also suffers from this same problem,as it is now essentially a SAAS platform that gets regular feature updates,  where is wasn't as bad with previous windows versions because they tended to be just bug and security fixes. That is one reason I am not a fan of windows 10, as things like the start menu would just stop working after an update.


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  #2411944 3-Feb-2020 15:34
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mattwnz:


So anything related to the age of the software, or support, or compatibility with software/hardware is irrelevant in this particular case because it does work on compatible hardware and software. Infact I also had it working on windows 10 after I did an upgrade. So that is all a Red Herring, and a distracting from the facts.




If support is a red herring there is no problem and you have no need to complain.

You are literally asking for support then saying support is irrelevant.

 
 
 
 




16389 posts

Uber Geek


  #2411945 3-Feb-2020 15:36
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Ruphus:

 

 

 

Were you paying maintenance on the software? If not, then I don't believe the software developer had a requirement to inform you of the update. I suspect that the license you paid for allowed you to use the software for the life of that version. This is common when purchasing software licenses.

 

 

 

 

I had my email address entered into their system to be informed of notifications and updates relating to the software, and my license key is also displayed in the section. So they kow I am a license owner of this particular software. So I have an active account in their system for this. There is no additional cost to that, nor any option to pay for receiving  notifications, and they do still send me email marketing regularly on their cloud service. My understanding is that they will always provide support for any activation, until they turn off the server, where they have always then provided an updated version that doesn't need activation. The only problem is that they are refusing to provide that update to me, and they never informed me that I needed to download the update. They are not disputing that they shouldn't have informed me either, and they have offered me some compensation in the form of credit. They just can't explain why I wasn't contacted. So anything to do with it being an older version is irreverent to the actual problem I am having with getting the non activated version of the product I purchased a license for. The only issue is why they are not providing me with the updated software and why they also didn't inform me. I am not complaining about any actual technical or compatibility problems with the software not working properly under Windows 10 etc, even though it does actually work fine under windows 10. 
Yes the company owns the actual software, but I own a license to install and use that software on my computer without time restrictions as long as I have paid for it, so IMO they had a duty of care to inform me as a license owner , if they make changes to their licensing system that may prevent that occurring. Including if they turn off their licensing system and release a new version that I need to download if I want to continue being able to install and use the software in the future. 

 

 

 

In terms of manufacturers disabling services, you will see I did comment in one of those threads, and yes I think  this does have parallels to that. I also had a similar experience with a  tech product  that had a lot of it's features disabled after the manufacturer turned off their server, that is supposed to push information to the product, rendering the product useless, and only fit for the landfill.

 

The manufacturer ended up sending me a new product that didn't require any cloud connection, under the CGA, after the retailer told me that it only had a 12 month warranty.  So I think it is a problem that needs some form of regulation, because it is going to continue to occur and get worse, as it is a form of built in obsolescence, and it ends up producing a significant about of e-waste. Companies however want people to regularly replace and upgrade things.So as hardware has become more reliable, the software ends up being the achilles heel.  At least I think they clearly need to display guaranteed  periods of cloud service on their packing that these remote cloud services will last for, so consumers can make an informed choice. Google do this with their pixel phone, where they say it will get a minimum of so many years of Android software updates. Although IMO isn't that long when you compare it to how long Apple provide iOS updates for. But at least customers can make an informed choice.  But these phone are still  usable after the updates cease, they aren't remotely killed by the manufacturer. .

 

Smart TVs also come to mind, as many smart TVs lose their features over time. I purchased a smart TV, that no longer has any smart features left! But at least the TV is still usable and can be connected to a smart dongle of some type. But many less tech savvy people end up  buying a new smart TV.


875 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411958 3-Feb-2020 16:05
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If you are unhappy with the compensation offer of a few months free services your only real option is the Disputes Tribunal, pay the $180 fee(for larger claims) and claim 10-15k+ in compensation.

 

 

 

That being said it entirely depends on the contract and what the service period is defined as. It might be for the lifetime of the product which in this case could be acceptable for them to end service a number of years after stopping selling the software commercially. 


437 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411972 3-Feb-2020 16:39
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Why don't you just tell us the name of the software. Someone might even have the patch available for you to install.....?


BDFL - Memuneh
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  #2411978 3-Feb-2020 17:07
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Delphinus:

 

Why don't you just tell us the name of the software. Someone might even have the patch available for you to install.....?

 

 

As explained in a previous post, the patch is linked to the licence number/serial number/registration and unique for each install.





 

 

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934 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411983 3-Feb-2020 17:19
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mattwnz:

 

It does depend on a range of factors, including whether the software is being used for business or home/non commercial use, which is how I am using the software for personal projects. Or if it is being used for mission critical purposes.

 

There is often nothing wrong with using older software, and infact if it it isn't connected to the internet, old software and OS's are perfectly fine and safe to use . I personally have quite a bit of old software running on virtual machines, and apart from this particular software, all my old software dating back to the 90's potentially is all still usable. Retro computers and tech is also now a big thing. I even have an older version of this affected software that is still usable, as it never required activation, but it doesn't have some features I need. The problem these days is how companies now have control over their software over the cloud, where they can essentially hit a 'kill' switch, and not allow it to then be installed. We were led initially to believe this was to prevent piracy. However in this case, it is essentially being used to force me off it and signup to their cloud service, otherwise they would have provided me with the software update that no longer required activation. The whole software upgrade thing is all about the company making money, esepcailly on mature software that gets very few new fetures. That on one reason why some companies have moved to the subscription model, because people weren't upgrading their software, mainly because there weren't enough new features to warrant paying for an upgrade. So the way companies have gotten around this is by then renting out the software.

 

But cloud computing can sometimes make sense to businesses where the software generates income for them. They don't have to pay a big purchase cost for the software, they are paying a lower rental fee, but overtime this will usually cost a lot more. Also businesses often need ongoing customer support and hand holding. Especially if the users aren't knowledgeable with computers, which is very often the case.  But i am someone who assembles my own computers and have been using PCs since DOS, and windows since the first versions, and I never need to contact support for software, and can usually always troubleshoot problems successfully.
But the problem I have found is that sometimes the regular feature updates on these SAAS software can break things, which wasn't such a problem with the owned versions, as they rarely got any updates, and those updates didn't often provide new features, they were mainly only bug fixes. Whereas updates for cloud software tend to drip feed new features. Windows 10 also suffers from this same problem,as it is now essentially a SAAS platform that gets regular feature updates,  where is wasn't as bad with previous windows versions because they tended to be just bug and security fixes. That is one reason I am not a fan of windows 10, as things like the start menu would just stop working after an update.

 

 

you aren’t especially knowledgeable about software licensing, or cloud software. Let’s see if I can help:

 

- the terms of your licence (which you can’t locate, for the problematic software at issue) is what determines supportability; not how it is used (business or home). Many licence terms preclude home usage, for example, and other restrictions.

 

- cloud software is a delivery method, whereby the cloud delivers the software. This saves installation costs, since you don’t install it ‘on-premise’, which saves the subscriber all of the costs associated with hardware on up. This is the rationale behind cloud software, not piracy.

 

- if it’s installed on your server, it’s not cloud software. Windows 10 is not a SAAS. It is crap as well.

 

- activating software via an activation server ... only permits a check that the software is correctly licensed. THIS helps with piracy.

 

Unfortunately, you made an infrastructure change that was unsupported by your supplier. I think they should provide the update you need, but I don’t believe they will unless you make a big fuss, because most likely they are simply not organised to deal with your edge case.

 

hopefully you and others will become aware of the issues associated with software licence management; which is not a simple discipline, unfortunately.

 

software, really, has a shorter lifespan than hardware.





BlinkyBill


267 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2412221 4-Feb-2020 08:35
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The OP hasn't answered my question about whether the software is used commercially or not. If it is, then the CGA cannot be applied.


Banana?
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  #2412224 4-Feb-2020 08:39
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Ruphus:

 

The OP hasn't answered my question about whether the software is used commercially or not. If it is, then the CGA cannot be applied.

 

 

They did say a few posts above that is was for personal projects.

 

If it were me, I would feel justified (whether or not it was "legal") downloading a ripped copy and using it, being that I have purchased the product. Not knowing what the product is though, that may not be possible.


267 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2412256 4-Feb-2020 09:33
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trig42:

 

Ruphus:

 

The OP hasn't answered my question about whether the software is used commercially or not. If it is, then the CGA cannot be applied.

 

 

They did say a few posts above that is was for personal projects.

 

 

Apologies to the OP. Thanks for clarifying.


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