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  Reply # 891105 6-Sep-2013 21:00
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Good article on Nokia management issues. It is hard to believe that they did so many things wrong and, rereading that article, it does make me wonder if the same is possible at Microsoft.


I think it's entirely possible at Microsoft.  I'd go as far to say it's already happening.

I didn't say Nokia wasted "time", I said that they wasted "smartphone development" and I should have included Meego. But the two overpriced Meego models I evaluated were hardly memorable marketing propositions.


I don't know what Meego models you evaluated.  I understand there were some issues with the initial version of the OS. I have an N9, admittedly I got it after the PR1.3 update.  That version of the OS is pretty good let down only by the small number of apps.  It's slick and stable with some very nice features.

Nokia certainly squandered lots of work and Williams is justifiably peeved but he doesn't say anything to change my view that Nokia Symbian phones were underwhelming and he is hardly an unbiased or disinterested observer. I knew nothing about Android or iOS at the time, their ecosystem or products. What I saw with Nokia/Symbian was that important features were slow to appear and integration with online features was always disappointing. And integration with my PCs was even worse. In terms of handset features, I found my productivity was so much better with a Sony Ericsson UIQ phone. Android was a bit crappy to start with but I found it better integrated with online features.


Squandered pretty well sums it up.  Sure Williams has a reason to go into bat for Symbian but I do think he has a point.  I don't know what versions you used but by the time Symbian was discontinued the Nokia Belle version wasn't too bad.

I don't know what important features you refer to as being slow to arrive, nor what online features you found disappointing. For me the Symbian and Meego OS's do more for me than Windows Phone and are at least as good as Android.  I suspect mileage varies depending on what features/services each user finds important. For example I don't use Twitter or Facebook so I don't know how good these are on Symbian or Meego.

Things I use my phone for the most other than calling and texting are, web browsing, email (reading and replying), maps, calendar, documents (spreadsheet, word and PDF) activity monitor (Sports Tracker), TV out.  Symbian and Meego handle all these tasks easily with the one exception the N9 cannot edit documents.

Windows Phone 8 on the other hand has a crap browser and there's not much in that way of choices, the calendar cannot handle .ics files without installing an app first and then only one event at a time (I cannot load my monthly work roster), it cannot interface with the Sportstracker bluetooth heart rate strap, and there's no TV out type of function. For me the 920 was a step backwards in many ways, my wife has it now and she bemoans the lack of features of WP8 compared to Symbian.

One criticism of Symbian that cropped up regularly was that it was slow. It certainly is slower than WP8, Android and Meego and the main reason I believe was the choice of processor.  Nokia chose battery life over processor speed, and there's no doubt about it Nokias had a reputation for good battery life.  However this approach didn't match what the majority of users wanted which was speed.  Nokia weren't necessarily good at picking these market trends.




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  Reply # 891111 6-Sep-2013 21:24
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Nokia basically destroyed Symbian before elop got there. 
http://mashable.com/2010/09/24/sony-ericson-leaves-symbian/

I had a sony vivaz touch screen mobile running Symbian, some aspects were nice but it was such a frustrating device I went back to my palm treo running win mobile 5






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  Reply # 891137 6-Sep-2013 22:22
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Regs: Nokia basically destroyed Symbian before elop got there. 
http://mashable.com/2010/09/24/sony-ericson-leaves-symbian/

I had a sony vivaz touch screen mobile running Symbian, some aspects were nice but it was such a frustrating device I went back to my palm treo running win mobile 5




Symbian Series 60, 5th edition, the version in the Sony Vivaz, is vastly different to the Nokia Belle Feature Pack version which the likes of the C7, N8 and E7 now use.  Actually Nokia had Symbian pretty well sorted by the time Elop turned up. They took their time about it though. There was in house fighting between the Symbian team and the Maemo/Meego team which bogged things down.

Many people criticise Symbian based on their experience with early versions, it's a bit like saying Android is crap just because you used one of the early Android versions that weren't so good.




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  Reply # 891185 7-Sep-2013 04:51
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Technofreak:
Squandered pretty well sums it up.  Sure Williams has a reason to go into bat for Symbian but I do think he has a point.  I don't know what versions you used but by the time Symbian was discontinued the Nokia Belle version wasn't too bad.

I don't know what important features you refer to as being slow to arrive, nor what online features you found disappointing. For me the Symbian and Meego OS's do more for me than Windows Phone and are at least as good as Android.  I suspect mileage varies depending on what features/services each user finds important. For example I don't use Twitter or Facebook so I don't know how good these are on Symbian or Meego.


I believe you that Symbian is excellent but in 2008/9 I'd decided they'd failed to deliver enough. Symbian just didn't do what it need to do. I switched to UIQ, which was more limited in many respects such as far fewer apps, but it was way more responsive and productive. On paper Symbian had lots of features but for some reason they didn't always get implemented on each phone. I don't know why there were so many differences and apps that were incompatible? Also, things I wanted to use a lot had issues: purchasing/downloading music on OVI, task switching, and integrating with PC apps. Problems like OVI being down a lot and, from memory, music quality being too low weren't specifically Symbian issues but they were problems using those handsets.


Technofreak: Many people criticise Symbian based on their experience with early versions, it's a bit like saying Android is crap just because you used one of the early Android versions that weren't so good.


I did say early Android was crappy. Maybe you mean me re Symbian in the 2008/9?

[edit: moved word "but"]

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  Reply # 891192 7-Sep-2013 08:22
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I believe you that Symbian is excellent but in 2008/9 I'd decided they'd failed to deliver enough. Symbian just didn't do what it need to do. I switched to UIQ, which was more limited in many respects such as far fewer apps, but it was way more responsive and productive. On paper Symbian had lots of features but for some reason they didn't always get implemented on each phone. I don't know why there were so many differences and apps that were incompatible? Also, things I wanted to use a lot had issues: purchasing/downloading music on OVI, task switching, and integrating with PC apps. Problems like OVI being down a lot and, from memory, music quality being too low weren't specifically Symbian issues but they were problems using those handsets.


Yep, I can understand why people went away from Symbian for the reasons you list. Nokia didn't respond quickly enough to some of these issues. In the end they got there just a pity they took so long. The Ovi Store works well, as does Ovi Suite (Nokia Suite).




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  Reply # 891620 8-Sep-2013 13:42
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Technofreak: 

Many people criticise Symbian based on their experience with early versions, it's a bit like saying Android is crap just because you used one of the early Android versions that weren't so good.


so how many versions did symbian have before 'they got it right'... we're only on the 3rd version of windows phone and its not looking too bad :-)




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  Reply # 891694 8-Sep-2013 16:43
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Regs:
Technofreak: 

Many people criticise Symbian based on their experience with early versions, it's a bit like saying Android is crap just because you used one of the early Android versions that weren't so good.


so how many versions did symbian have before 'they got it right'... we're only on the 3rd version of windows phone and its not looking too bad :-)


Going back to EPOC 10 major 'Symbian' versions in total but five specifically for smartphones.

The main problems with application incompatibility was due to the different user interfaces which forked development and became unique to each vendor.

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  Reply # 891801 8-Sep-2013 22:46
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Regs:
Technofreak: 

Many people criticise Symbian based on their experience with early versions, it's a bit like saying Android is crap just because you used one of the early Android versions that weren't so good.


so how many versions did symbian have before 'they got it right'... we're only on the 3rd version of windows phone and its not looking too bad :-)


Yep, no doubt about it, Nokia took their time sorting out Symbian.  My point was about people using their experience with old versions of an OS to pass comment newer/current versions.

By my count there has been 6 versions of Windows Phone so far (correct me if I'm wrong 3 for WP7 - 7, 7.5 and 7.8 and 3 for WP8 - Initial version, Portico, Amber),  and there's still more to come.  Based on your comments you'd think a company like  Microsoft might have done a little bit better than they have so far.




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  Reply # 891835 9-Sep-2013 01:54
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Technofreak: 
By my count there has been 6 versions of Windows Phone so far (correct me if I'm wrong 3 for WP7 - 7, 7.5 and 7.8 and 3 for WP8 - Initial version, Portico, Amber),  and there's still more to come.  Based on your comments you'd think a company like  Microsoft might have done a little bit better than they have so far.


I only really count 7, 7.5 and 8.0 as different versions.  the other point releases aren't really big enough to qualify as a new release.

Sure, it would have been nice to see them a bit further along.  I guess they have a limited development budget though and can't please everyone.  With the nokia engineers as part of microsoft now, perhaps they will get to control the OS features a bit more, using their wealth of experience.  Hopefully the increasing market shares in some markets will also mean that 3rd party apps will start to become important too and the 'gaps' start to shrink.




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  Reply # 891899 9-Sep-2013 09:18
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Sure, it would have been nice to see them a bit further along.  I guess they have a limited development budget though and can't please everyone.  With the nokia engineers as part of microsoft now, perhaps they will get to control the OS features a bit more, using their wealth of experience.  


I think you're right about the limited development budget. This is where I see a disconnect.  Microsoft have stated that they want to be a significant player in the mobile market but haven't given enough resources to doing the job.

There's been rumours that Nokia was frustrated with the pace Microsoft was progressing Windows Phone.  Perhaps as you suggest, now that the Nokia engineers will be Microsoft employees, things will change. Frankly I don't have confidence they will change. Windows Phone is a nice OS in many ways, it deserves better market share, but still has some important failings, at least for me.  

Like you with Symbian I've tried Windows Phone (Lumia 920) and went back to another OS because of deficiencies with WP.  I'm not likely to come back to Windows Phone in a hurry, if at all.

Hopefully the increasing market shares in some markets will also mean that 3rd party apps will start to become important too and the 'gaps' start to shrink.


Microsoft expected to pick up Nokia's Symbian share of the smartphone market to add to the WP market share.  This never happened.  The Symbian market deserted WP, you have to ask the question as to why this happened as a very good number of Nokia owner are/were very loyal to the Nokia brand.




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Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
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