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  Reply # 1436806 28-Nov-2015 12:04
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nathan: 

right, which is not what the customer (telco) wants, so hence the complexity I mentioned



Just to be sure I've got this straight. I would have though the end user (i.e.the phone owner/purchaser) was the customer BUT no Microsoft considers the Telco is the customer.  Have I got that right?

The words, wagging, tail and dog come to mind.

I fail to see how having one extra SKU causes so much complexity.

I'm sorry Nathan I cannot accept your explanation of complexity being the sole reason, partly since you've changed tack on the reasons for not stocking DS.

I can understand to some extent the Telco stipulating what models they want to stock, but when it comes to what Microsoft stocks in their store I cannot accept the number SKU's as being the reason not to stock a DS version.  Microsoft have made the decision to make DS versions, it's in their interests to sell as many phones as they can. Why wouldn't they stock it here?





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  Reply # 1436831 28-Nov-2015 13:06
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Technofreak: Microsoft have made the decision to make DS versions, it's in their interests to sell as many phones as they can. Why wouldn't they stock it here?


Agreed.  I can imagine that if there were 7 different colour options that SS/DS would add a lot of complexity into what is a small market, but this thread is a perfect example of people WANTING to buy an existing product directly from MS, and not being able to.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1436834 28-Nov-2015 13:14
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What is the advantage/use case of dual SIM? I assume you can run a SIM from two different carriers but why pay a double bill each month? Work/personal phone in one device?

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  Reply # 1436841 28-Nov-2015 13:21
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UHD: Work/personal phone in one device?


I know a lot of people who carry two phones, one work and one personal. A dual sim device would be ideal for them.

It's my guess many businesses would be quite happy to supply a DS device to their staff but they won't bother parallel importing.




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  Reply # 1436872 28-Nov-2015 14:07
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To me a dual sim is invaluable, I have 4 different carriers 2 in NZ and 2 in China. Whilst I can get away with just using 2 different carriers ie one in each country it is a real pain to carry 2 phones and as I work for myself it is imperative I monitor my NZ work calls whilst in China but there is no way I would use my NZ sim as a daily driver for communication in China as whilst in China I use my Chinese carrier as my data supplier for my laptop ie hot spot. I seem to recall in recent times a $30,000 data bill for one unfortunate NZ traveler cry

Graeme

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  Reply # 1436984 28-Nov-2015 18:27
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Are the dual SIM phones able to run/monitor both networks at the same time? I've only ever used one that required a manual switch between SIM cards though it had two slots.

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  Reply # 1436990 28-Nov-2015 18:45
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UHD: Are the dual SIM phones able to run/monitor both networks at the same time? I've only ever used one that required a manual switch between SIM cards though it had two slots.


Yes, I use a 640XL DS with both work and personal sims installed. It monitors both networks and has all phone functions duplicated including signal strength in the header bar.

There is one minor difference between the two SIM slots, an NFC sim ( semble / snapper ) has to be put in slot 1 to work with single wire protocol ( SWP ).

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  Reply # 1437078 29-Nov-2015 05:22
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Technofreak:
nathan: 

right, which is not what the customer (telco) wants, so hence the complexity I mentioned



Just to be sure I've got this straight. I would have though the end user (i.e.the phone owner/purchaser) was the customer BUT no Microsoft considers the Telco is the customer.  Have I got that right?

The words, wagging, tail and dog come to mind.

I fail to see how having one extra SKU causes so much complexity.

I'm sorry Nathan I cannot accept your explanation of complexity being the sole reason, partly since you've changed tack on the reasons for not stocking DS.

I can understand to some extent the Telco stipulating what models they want to stock, but when it comes to what Microsoft stocks in their store I cannot accept the number SKU's as being the reason not to stock a DS version.  Microsoft have made the decision to make DS versions, it's in their interests to sell as many phones as they can. Why wouldn't they stock it here?



The primary customer for all phone manufacturers is a telco, they wield the power of what their customers can buy, put on a plan etc

You don't have to accept or even believe the reason I gave for DS not being available but I've explained the reason and it's the truth

Just like all the Samsung and other manufacturers that produce DS devices that the telcos won't sell here, same thing

You can buy a DS from another website just not the Microsoftstore NZ website

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  Reply # 1437128 29-Nov-2015 09:39
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Hi Nathan,

Your comparison with Samsung is not really an apples with apples comparison as they don't appear to sell phones from their online store, so it's not possible to know if they are kowtowing to  the Telco ban on selling dual sim devices.  

That said thanks for taking the trouble to reply. You do a good job of representing Microsoft's products and services.

It's a weird world we live in where the retailer dictates what the customer can buy. That's not a dig at MS but a comment on this situation in general.

Why should Telco's have this power? In fact why should they be in the device retail space at all? We're back in the days where the NZPO dictated what phone you had in your house.

TV service providers like Sky don't sell TV's nor do they dictate what sort of device you can buy. I'm sure there are other examples.




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  Reply # 1437162 29-Nov-2015 10:54
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Technofreak: Hi Nathan,

Your comparison with Samsung is not really an apples with apples comparison as they don't appear to sell phones from their online store, so it's not possible to know if they are kowtowing to  the Telco ban on selling dual sim devices.  

That said thanks for taking the trouble to reply. You do a good job of representing Microsoft's products and services.

It's a weird world we live in where the retailer dictates what the customer can buy. That's not a dig at MS but a comment on this situation in general.

Why should Telco's have this power? In fact why should they be in the device retail space at all? We're back in the days where the NZPO dictated what phone you had in your house.

TV service providers like Sky don't sell TV's nor do they dictate what sort of device you can buy. I'm sure there are other examples.


The fact that we can get dual sim phones is in itself amazing, were it up to western telcos this situation could never have occurred. Dual sim phones as a concept seem to have originated in Asia where perhaps the same restrictive policies were maybe not either thought thru or lesser importance placed on the desire to restrict carrier competition but of course once the cat was out of the bag that dual sim phones were technically able to be brought to market .......

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  Reply # 1437252 29-Nov-2015 16:06
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Ok, to clear a few things up (and to give NathanM's guidance a little more credence,

The reasoning behind lack of DS is as Nathan has imparted already due to APAC carriers not wanting to carry DS.

Due to all testing for handsets going through the operators (they're the ones with the infrastucture that the handsets need to run on), their needs to be a business case for this testing to be approved, this testing is NOT cheap. DS (as much as many of you may seem to want it) is still a tiny tiny percentage of what the SS variants will ship. To have these tested locally to the network operator methodology will eat into so much of the margin, that it becomes untenable. This isn't shift blaming, it's simple economics.

Why are networks the customer? Well the majority of stock sold any where in the world is sold through operators, even Apple can only dictate to a point, they still need to have carrier packs approved globally for each handset and OS variant they sell.

To not test these handsets, you do at times see issues, many described around the GZ forums, poor battery life, limited or no coverage where it is expected, features just not working etc etc etc, would mean MS would end up being dragged over the coals for selling a handset that "Doesn't work to specification" I have no doubt many of you would jump up and down if MS just went ahead and sold the DS variants here, only to discover things didn't work as you'd hope.

Yes, SOMETIMES things do work when they shouldn't, but this is the exception, not the rule. (case in point is Technofreaks N8, this wasn't ranged on TNZ due to coverage issues, no politics, no subterfuge involved, just simple a simple reality. 925 was the same.)

If you want DS, then import at your own risk. It may well work perfectly, it may well not. That's the risk you take.

Happy to clarify further if anyone wants.

NathanM has been open and honest in his replies and I stand behind his comments.

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  Reply # 1437348 29-Nov-2015 19:02
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BrentR: 
Due to all testing for handsets going through the operators (they're the ones with the infrastucture that the handsets need to run on), their needs to be a business case for this testing to be approved, this testing is NOT cheap. DS (as much as many of you may seem to want it) is still a tiny tiny percentage of what the SS variants will ship. To have these tested locally to the network operator methodology will eat into so much of the margin, that it becomes untenable. This isn't shift blaming, it's simple economics.


Happy to clarify further if anyone wants.

NathanM has been open and honest in his replies and I stand behind his comments.


I must say I completely disagree.

As someone who has installed cellular networks in NZ I know a little bit about it and what you have said about testing is absolutely false in the case of dual sim phones.

Cellular services and the devices that connect to network all conform to very strict and precise world wide design standards, testing yes must be done at initial handset design however once it works on ONE network it will work on all. Any thing else is an abstraction for carriers to make the case for not letting these handsets be used.

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  Reply # 1437359 29-Nov-2015 19:22
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ghce:
BrentR: 
Due to all testing for handsets going through the operators (they're the ones with the infrastucture that the handsets need to run on), their needs to be a business case for this testing to be approved, this testing is NOT cheap. DS (as much as many of you may seem to want it) is still a tiny tiny percentage of what the SS variants will ship. To have these tested locally to the network operator methodology will eat into so much of the margin, that it becomes untenable. This isn't shift blaming, it's simple economics.


Happy to clarify further if anyone wants.

NathanM has been open and honest in his replies and I stand behind his comments.


I must say I completely disagree.

As someone who has installed cellular networks in NZ I know a little bit about it and what you have said about testing is absolutely false in the case of dual sim phones.

Cellular services and the devices that connect to network all conform to very strict and precise world wide design standards, testing yes must be done at initial handset design however once it works on ONE network it will work on all. Any thing else is an abstraction for carriers to make the case for not letting these handsets be used.


I'll completely disagree with you, as someone who has been involved in the testing, selling and problem solving of handsets being sold to a wide variety of operators.

Connecting to a network is only ONE part of the equation and can be (often is) different for various providers. From SMS settings, to varying MMS settings to the stepped process that a call is connected to the network does vary between networks. You're over simplifying something that is a little more than simple.

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  Reply # 1437362 29-Nov-2015 19:28
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UHD: What is the advantage/use case of dual SIM? I assume you can run a SIM from two different carriers but why pay a double bill each month? Work/personal phone in one device?


I have a work DS phone .  My main SIM is on Skinny and my second SIM on Optus AU  so that I can do password resets that require a SMS code to change them..  It worked out of the box..




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  Reply # 1437396 29-Nov-2015 20:50
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BrentR:

Connecting to a network is only ONE part of the equation and can be (often is) different for various providers. From SMS settings, to varying MMS settings to the stepped process that a call is connected to the network does vary between networks. You're over simplifying something that is a little more than simple.


Yes I can agree with you on these aspects however I do not think that to test a particular handset on one network is an economic burden. The reason I say one network is that the seller of the handset is only concerned with their own network, using a dual sim handset on another network that is different than the suppliers own network is not the original carriers problem if issues are discovered so long as this is made clear at purchase.

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