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Topic # 179278 2-Sep-2015 23:13
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Does anyone know when daisy chained telephone sockets could have been 'officially' dropped as standard practice for new home builds and structured cabling became the standard in NZ? Wondering if telecom ever published a specification.

I ask because I am absolutely livid with an electrician at the moment who claims he installed telephone sockets (in a brand new house with no attic) in the "normal daisy chain fashion that they do everywhere" and the home owner is not happy that he isnt getting the data cabling that the building company said would be installed.
I even did a walk through with the electrician and he just ignored everything I said.




Ray Taylor
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  Reply # 1378648 3-Sep-2015 00:10
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Thanks
I am currently reading through
http://www.telepermit.co.nz/PTC106_Mar_2008.pdf

Which so far indicates that the homehub form and structured cabling was standardised in 2008, but makes references to when the telepermit newsletters first started recommending it back in 2003.

This guide also makes references to say that the wiring that this electrician has done is not up to this standard (as of 2008) and it even goes as far as saying there is some liability they have under the consumer guarantees act.


So am reading through to try and work out if daisy chaining is now actually classed as a telepermit failure or just poor installation.

edit: Looks like the TCF guide is an updated version of the telecom 2008 guide.




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  Reply # 1378660 3-Sep-2015 00:19
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I think this might be the key paragraph

4.5.2 Telepermit requirements
RJ45 TO’s are not currently subject to Telecom’s Telepermit requirements, as
these items, along with the Home Distributor and associated cabling, are not
covered by Telecom’s wiring maintenance service. Nevertheless, it is a
requirement of Telecom’s Standard Terms and Conditions for its network
services that premises wiring is provided and installed in accordance with
Telecom’s Codes of Practice. Compliance with the requirements of this Code is
thus regarded as a prerequisite for the provision of Telecom’s services

So the electrician used CAT5 cabling in the house, with daisy chained BT plugs. This then implies that although the individual outlets do not require telepermittng, the whole installation does not meet the requirements because it doesnt use RJ45 outlets and star wiring.

I have a meeting with the home owner and the home builder tomorrow and my argument to support the home owner is that the whole installation needs to be re-done as it cannot be legally connected to the chorus network as it doesnt meet the telepermit specifications, even though it doesnt require a telepermit sticker, it still has to meet the structured specifications.

And to drive the point in, its "been this way since 2008 so why are you still doing it the old way which begun to be phased out in 2003"




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  Reply # 1378665 3-Sep-2015 05:36
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AFAIK there is no legal standard for extra low voltage work, which covers data/comms work. Of course there is best practice  but without a written agreement of what standard the work will be done to it's a case of "what is wrong with it".


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  Reply # 1378691 3-Sep-2015 07:20
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Despite Telecom specs saying you should use RJ45's dating back to 1998 (and various documents since then including the TCF wiring specs) the use of daisy chained BT jack points is still very much the norm in this world. I've seen plenty of new homes and apartment buildings finished in the last 6 months all wired like this.

My general view is that electricians shouldn't be allowed to touch data/phone stuff unless they're qualified in the same way a normal person can't do lots of power work unless they're qualified. The problem with this view is it assumes that all electricians are hopeless, which is not quite the case. In the real world however it's safe to say the vast majority have no understanding of data, and those who are willing to up skill are tainted by those who don't want to.


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  Reply # 1378723 3-Sep-2015 08:20
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 the home owner is not happy that he isnt getting the data cabling that the building company said would be installed.


Ray

Doesn't this address the concern? If it's in the contract, then there's a clear fail.

Or is it one of those wonderful one line ambigious items in the contract that is silent on cabling standards, termination points, design of solution etc?

I'd like to say I was surprised, but as so many people have learned... you need to sit on everything and not just trust to the process.

The pace at our place has veered from fast to maddeningly slow, but we've been able to see and comment on every step of every piece as it's progressed. It's been a revelation as to what NZ standard building practise is (not just for cabling, but build in general), and we know so much more now but wish I didn't have to find it during the build or having to read a 400-page building specification doc.




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  Reply # 1379346 3-Sep-2015 18:49
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antoniosk:
 the home owner is not happy that he isnt getting the data cabling that the building company said would be installed.


Ray

Doesn't this address the concern? If it's in the contract, then there's a clear fail.

Or is it one of those wonderful one line ambigious items in the contract that is silent on cabling standards, termination points, design of solution etc?

...


I agree with antoniosk that this is the key point. And even if the terms of the contract are broad or ambiguous, I would still be holding the building company to their word.

A good constructive first step would be to have a conversation with the building company rep along the lines of "you said you would do x and your subcontractor has done y". It seems likely that if you can get the work redone, it is not going to be by this electrician in any event.

The TCF premises wiring standards are worded as recommendations, and as far as I know there is no legal requirement to follow these (or any other standard that requiring star wiring) as others have pointed out. Having said that, I would still make the point that the approach taken is outdated. 

If the standards did become mandatory, it seems that based on the latest consultation version (June 2015) that everything would have to be wired in Cat6A. For those in the industry wanting greater regulation, be careful what you wish for! For myself, I think a better approach would be to push more information to consumers and the construction industry, although I find when I raise the point that the common response is that "we just use wireless".





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  Reply # 1379372 3-Sep-2015 19:42
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There is a bit of murky water there.

This is how I am basing my argument:

1) The telecommunications act - i think 2001 says that you cannot connect any network hardware to a telecommunications network that are not approved by the network operator.

2) telecom/chorus grants permission to connect to its network via the telepermit process it has in place

3) If you dont have a telepermit then you cannot connect it to the network

4) Telecom/Chorus grants you permission to connect hardware such as a telephone or your home wiring to the chorus network if it has a telepermit as per PTC100. Telecom/Chorus automatically grant your home wiring a telepermit if it meets PTC103 or PTC106

However I just found PTC103 1998 which is the two wire system still published on the telepermit website and the wording in PTC106 just seems to imply its now the recomended option over PTC103, but doesnt specifically say PTC103 is no longer acceptable.

So that got me annoyed - I cant pressure electricians to put in structured cabling.

From the meeting this afternoon, the building company said they dont install structured cabling into rural homes. Only urban ones. All rural homes just get the old 2-wire standard as part of their mcdonalds type pricing scheme.

The electrician sub contractor had told the home owner that he was using data cabling - the electrician genuinely believed that when the home owner wanted data cabling, he thought that ment to use cat5 instead of two pair cat3 or old style telephone wire, but still continue to use daisy chained BT jacks and leave the other pairs disconnected without any star topology.

Somehow cat5 cabling with BT jacks is better at carrying "data" than cat3 with BT jacks???

I told the home owner that there has been some confusion between the sub-contractor and himself, and he should have specified data cabling with the building company, not their contractor.

In the mean time I was able to modify the wiring in such a way that I could get a data connection from the garage out to the lounge where a router could be positioned, and got the TV hard wired for broadband, while leaving the blue pair everywhere for their telephone line when chorus connects it.

I told the home owner that I cannot give him any reason for recourse and I have managed to get the wiring to meet his requirements, therefore i will walk away and now stay out of any argument he has with the home builder and their contractor.





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  Reply # 1379392 3-Sep-2015 20:48
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Unfortunately I can't see anything changing until Chorus start refusing connections to people without the correct wiring. How bad does an installation need to be before Chorus will reject a connection?





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  Reply # 1379403 3-Sep-2015 21:08
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Aredwood: Unfortunately I can't see anything changing until Chorus start refusing connections to people without the correct wiring. How bad does an installation need to be before Chorus will reject a connection?


Chorus's responsibility stops at the ETP (or ONT) so they won't do anything about it.

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  Reply # 1379412 3-Sep-2015 21:27
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The way I see it, this isn't something that should be the homeowners problem. If the contract says structured cabling, its up to the building company to make it right.

This is why people use building companies, if they can't sort things like this, they are of no use whatsoever.




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  Reply # 1379421 3-Sep-2015 21:59
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The sparky used by our building company had no idea about structured cabling. i emailed the sparky and project manager and building consultant the chorus standards and told them to get thier act together..... house down the road just done by them.......you guessed it wired for ph only



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  Reply # 1379923 4-Sep-2015 18:03
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chevrolux:
Aredwood: Unfortunately I can't see anything changing until Chorus start refusing connections to people without the correct wiring. How bad does an installation need to be before Chorus will reject a connection?


Chorus's responsibility stops at the ETP (or ONT) so they won't do anything about it.


From the research I have done over the last few days then from a technical perspective they wont convey the imaginary telepermit for the internal wiring unless it conforms to PTC 103 or PTC 106

But the chances of them actually inspecting it so they can decline are pretty much zero, so long as they dont detect a short at the ETP.

I would actually like chorus to change the rules so PTC 106 is the only acceptable standard for new dwelling connections where there is more than two bedrooms.




Ray Taylor
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  Reply # 1379925 4-Sep-2015 18:06
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They livened my house line and the other end of the etp cable wasnt even terminated

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  Reply # 1379963 4-Sep-2015 19:51
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raytaylor:
chevrolux:
Aredwood: Unfortunately I can't see anything changing until Chorus start refusing connections to people without the correct wiring. How bad does an installation need to be before Chorus will reject a connection?


Chorus's responsibility stops at the ETP (or ONT) so they won't do anything about it.


From the research I have done over the last few days then from a technical perspective they wont convey the imaginary telepermit for the internal wiring unless it conforms to PTC 103 or PTC 106

But the chances of them actually inspecting it so they can decline are pretty much zero, so long as they dont detect a short at the ETP.

I would actually like chorus to change the rules so PTC 106 is the only acceptable standard for new dwelling connections where there is more than two bedrooms.


Yup you pretty much nailed it right there. As someone who has done Chorus Provisioning I can tell you the process was connect at ETP, if short circuit (or even dis between ETP and jackpoint) then inform customer and tell them to get their sparky back and will reconnect then.
A number of years ago (around the start of the whisper cabinet migration and the advent of vdsl) we all sat with some guys from Chorus who had designed a 'home hub' type box that housed a splitter and patch panel etc. And they told us how we would only ever install ethernet outlets and BT was out blah blah blah. None of it ever took off because none of the major ISP's marketed vdsl so there was no chance to install these hubs and also the install cost was a bit high and people didn't see the value.
Chorus have got the right idea but at the end of the day they are just the lines company. It's up to the retailers to up sell customer to proper wiring schemes because they are the ones selling the 200Mbps plans.

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