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  #1545598 2-May-2016 21:08
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indileosat:

Was expecting the exact words from people around here.


Mesh networks have no value in developed world. It's just dumb. right ?


Wrong!


@sbiddle is very experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to WiFi and networking.
If he says it's a bad idea, it won't work, or it it's not worth the effort, believe him.




Location: Dunedin

 


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  #1545601 2-May-2016 21:13
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 The Mesh in Wellington is using the Wifi GURL not the ham licence


 
 
 
 


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  #1545631 2-May-2016 22:00
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indileosat:

 

Was expecting the exact words from people around here.

 

Mesh networks have no value in developed world. It's just dumb. right ?

 

Wrong!

 

 

So what is it going to be used for?

 

I can only see value as a community effort to get some limited internet connectivity to people who would otherwise not be able to afford it.





Richard rich.ms



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  #1545646 2-May-2016 22:26

Thanks for all your input.

 

Since the software isn't complete, I can't give much detail.

 

 

 

I'm not saying you are all wrong in your technical doubts.

 

You have much years of experience in networks than me, I'm sure.

 

 

 

It's the usecase which you imagine isn't yet clear to community. Mesh networks are as much valuable and useful in developed economy as it is in developing world.

 

This technological area clearly needs thoughtful solutions to come up with.


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  #1545722 3-May-2016 07:15
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indileosat: 

 

It's the usecase which you imagine isn't yet clear to community. Mesh networks are as much valuable and useful in developed economy as it is in developing world.

 

This technological area clearly needs thoughtful solutions to come up with.

 

 

Mesh networks in the developing world were something that was trendy 10 years ago - it's something that's seen it's day with incredibly low cost PtP equipment from the likes of Ubiquiti and Mikrotik that deliver vastly improved network performance and reliability.

 

 


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  #1545742 3-May-2016 08:05
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In NZ I would think that Spark has effectively killed any requirements for needing a mesh network 3 fold.

 

- Skinny Mobile Broadband where you with $55 for 60GB or Wireless Broadband which is $90 for 80GB including the phone line or $85 for Naked MBB.

 

- Spark Free WiFi for Broadband and other plans leveraging the phone boxes around the country which is another issue finding power and appropriate sites to host the hardware.

 

- Spark buying the 2300Mhz range from Woosh which used to provide TD-CDMA Broadband until Woosh shutdown due to the product being so bad. I'm sure Spark plan to launch LTE services in that band.

 

 

 

As has been said numerous times mesh / wifi networks were good back in the day, but cheap Mobile Broadband has effectively killed the whole market.

 

That and the associated costs of being a Service Provider (Internet Backhaul, Billing, Subscriber Management, complying with government agencies should you receive a Section 92a Copyright infringement notice or Police Request) that is all real money you need to spend every month just to start your business before you find someone willing to pay for it.

 

What you are proposing is a nonsense.





and




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  #1545765 3-May-2016 08:58

BarTender:

 

In NZ I would think that Spark has effectively killed any requirements for needing a mesh network 3 fold.

 

- Skinny Mobile Broadband where you with $55 for 60GB or Wireless Broadband which is $90 for 80GB including the phone line or $85 for Naked MBB.

 

- Spark Free WiFi for Broadband and other plans leveraging the phone boxes around the country which is another issue finding power and appropriate sites to host the hardware.

 

- Spark buying the 2300Mhz range from Woosh which used to provide TD-CDMA Broadband until Woosh shutdown due to the product being so bad. I'm sure Spark plan to launch LTE services in that band.

 

 

 

As has been said numerous times mesh / wifi networks were good back in the day, but cheap Mobile Broadband has effectively killed the whole market.

 

That and the associated costs of being a Service Provider (Internet Backhaul, Billing, Subscriber Management, complying with government agencies should you receive a Section 92a Copyright infringement notice or Police Request) that is all real money you need to spend every month just to start your business before you find someone willing to pay for it.

 

What you are proposing is a nonsense.

 

 

 

 

I like your reply. That's some informative.

 

Where it's mentioned it's a business ? Did you just assume it is?

 

Don't assume. Ask. Confirm. Then say something about that.

 

 

 

Let me know what you understand what's the use of Mesh network is. I'm sure mine and yours understanding would be different.

 

Don't think it's a debate, or I'm saying you guys are wrong. It's all about thinking and understanding.

 

 

 

If someone comes with queries You guys always come with replies like that? Not so friendly community then as I thought so.


 
 
 
 


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  #1545870 3-May-2016 11:07
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indileosat:

 

Let me know what you understand what's the use of Mesh network is. I'm sure mine and yours understanding would be different.

 

Don't think it's a debate, or I'm saying you guys are wrong. It's all about thinking and understanding.

 

 

 

If someone comes with queries You guys always come with replies like that? Not so friendly community then as I thought so.

 

 

The problem is that 2.4GHz single-radio-node mesh wifi has poor performance in the best possible conditions, and you haven't told us what you expect your network would be used for.

 

You say "let's just use everyone's existing routers" which we assume means you're advocating installing software on people's existing routers, sitting inside people's houses, with stock antennas.  Which is going to mean terrible performance.

 

We assume that whatever the network would be used for (you still haven't said) would require better-than-terrible performance.  We're telling you that what you say you want to build will not work for what we think you might use it for.

 

Why not tell us what high level goal you're trying to achieve?




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  #1545922 3-May-2016 11:49

deadlyllama:

 

 

 

The problem is that 2.4GHz single-radio-node mesh wifi has poor performance in the best possible conditions, and you haven't told us what you expect your network would be used for.

 

You say "let's just use everyone's existing routers" which we assume means you're advocating installing software on people's existing routers, sitting inside people's houses, with stock antennas.  Which is going to mean terrible performance.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's what I had in mind, to see if existing home routers are good enough to create mesh network. Thanks for clearing it's not a good idea to go with. smile

 

 

 

deadlyllama:

 

We assume that whatever the network would be used for (you still haven't said) would require better-than-terrible performance.  We're telling you that what you say you want to build will not work for what we think you might use it for.

 

Why not tell us what high level goal you're trying to achieve?

 

 

 

 

The goal is to see if it is possible to make a local mesh network. A community based, and not from a business. 

 

I'm not proposing a network solution. I'm only coming up with a software solution (sorry I still can't give details. It's just not the right time). I came here with intention I'll learn from the community if what I think is good or bad in terms of making and running a local mesh network. I know Mesh networks are not considered a good choice around the world to make a community based network, and there are people who are looking into it trying to see what solutions they can come up with to make it happen, what they can do, what needs to be done to make a good affordable mesh network solution. It's not a company or business thing, it's a community thing. I'm not trying to setup an enterprise or a business, I'm just a simple technical enough user like everyone else here who's discussing if New Zealand had ever attempts made to make a local mesh network, what the hurdles were, what the issues community faced, if they succeed or not succeed what were the reasons.

 

What I'm trying to do is identify the issues which are bottleneck to have a local mesh network, try to understand that and see if anything can be done to fix that. It might be a mountain task, and I can't do that alone, but at least I'm trying to understand this area out of my interest in technology. Is that wrong thing to do? It doesn't make sense to explore and learn and discuss about it? I really don't think so.

 

I was expecting replies like "Nonsense", "Bul****", "Idiot" etc. It doesn't matter. What matters is I get some negative feedback from you all. Thanks to that I'll at least have some points noted what I need to be aware if I'm getting into this subject to explore and learn about.

 

 

 

Thanks again


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  #1545931 3-May-2016 12:13
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indileosat:

 

deadlyllama:

 

We assume that whatever the network would be used for (you still haven't said) would require better-than-terrible performance.  We're telling you that what you say you want to build will not work for what we think you might use it for.

 

Why not tell us what high level goal you're trying to achieve?

 

 

The goal is to see if it is possible to make a local mesh network. A community based, and not from a business. 

 

 

It's technically possible.  The trick is getting other people interested.  As someone who has tried this in the past, that's the tricky bit.

 

Don't tie yourself to ideas of "mesh" or particular hardware/etc until you've got people interested enough to build it with you.  You want to build a "Community Broadband Network."

 

If you look at what people like Freifunk/etc are doing, they build small patches of meshy-network (adhoc 802.11something with batman-adv or babel) and strategically interconnect these patches with something else -- point to point ubiquiti/mikrotik wireless links, VPNs over people's internet connections, etc.

 

If you look at what small communities and rural ISPs in NZ do, they tend to build point-to-multipoint networks with ubiquiti/mikrotik gear, and then connect the base stations together with point to point links.

 

The technology is neat but without users it's just sitting there chewing electricity or shelf space.

 

 




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  #1545943 3-May-2016 12:39

deadlyllama:

 

indileosat:

 

 

 

The goal is to see if it is possible to make a local mesh network. A community based, and not from a business. 

 

 

It's technically possible.  The trick is getting other people interested.  As someone who has tried this in the past, that's the tricky bit.

 

Don't tie yourself to ideas of "mesh" or particular hardware/etc until you've got people interested enough to build it with you.  You want to build a "Community Broadband Network."

 

If you look at what people like Freifunk/etc are doing, they build small patches of meshy-network (adhoc 802.11something with batman-adv or babel) and strategically interconnect these patches with something else -- point to point ubiquiti/mikrotik wireless links, VPNs over people's internet connections, etc.

 

If you look at what small communities and rural ISPs in NZ do, they tend to build point-to-multipoint networks with ubiquiti/mikrotik gear, and then connect the base stations together with point to point links.

 

The technology is neat but without users it's just sitting there chewing electricity or shelf space.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply mate and suggesting some correct words to use for terms.

 

Will look into how Freifunk tech and see if that could be something which gives some solution. Do you have any knowledge on if we had anybody using Freifunk in NZ ? Search results haven't gave any such results so far. I'll contact freifunk community.

 

What you suggest the best way to go with to have users and setup a small local "Community Broadband Network."?

 

What would you expect it to be if there could have been one ? Any not to have and have to haves in it.

 

 

 

Cheers


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  #1545986 3-May-2016 13:10
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indileosat:

 

 

 

What you suggest the best way to go with to have users and setup a small local "Community Broadband Network."?

 

What would you expect it to be if there could have been one ? Any not to have and have to haves in it.

 

 

The biggest thing to be aware of is that you'll automatically become an IPAP. You need to be fully aware of the implications of doing this, both from a legal and a technical perspective.

 

 




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  #1546004 3-May-2016 13:34

sbiddle:

 

indileosat:

 

 

 

What you suggest the best way to go with to have users and setup a small local "Community Broadband Network."?

 

What would you expect it to be if there could have been one ? Any not to have and have to haves in it.

 

 

The biggest thing to be aware of is that you'll automatically become an IPAP. You need to be fully aware of the implications of doing this, both from a legal and a technical perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Internet Protocol Address Provider"

 

Thanks for point it.

 

Will keep that in mind.


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  #1546272 3-May-2016 20:02
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indileosat:

sbiddle:


indileosat:


 


What you suggest the best way to go with to have users and setup a small local "Community Broadband Network."?


What would you expect it to be if there could have been one ? Any not to have and have to haves in it.



The biggest thing to be aware of is that you'll automatically become an IPAP. You need to be fully aware of the implications of doing this, both from a legal and a technical perspective.



"Internet Protocol Address Provider"


Thanks for point it.


Will keep that in mind.



No...

@sbiddle means as a provider of Internet services to customers being paid or not you're an IPAP
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2011/0011/latest/DLM2764327.html
So you'll need to comply with the above legislation.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful but I just think that so many factors in NZ (Excellent MBB, Compliance and infrastructure costs) means that in my professional opinion your energy and money is better utilised on other endeavours.




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  #1546276 3-May-2016 20:07
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BarTender:

@sbiddle means as a provider of Internet services to customers being paid or not you're an IPAP
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2011/0011/latest/DLM2764327.html
So you'll need to comply with the above legislation.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful but I just think that so many factors in NZ (Excellent MBB, Compliance and infrastructure costs) means that in my professional opinion your energy and money is better utilised on other endeavours.

 

And depending on exactly what the OP is trying to do (but providing a public service means it's highly likely they'll need to) they'll also need to ensure their network is compliant with all aspects of the TICSA regulations and register with the Police/GCSB.

 

 

 

 


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