Help with hyperfibre home network and corporate switch

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michaelmurfy

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#3060755 9-Apr-2023 19:02

That switch is total overkill. But with the provider you're with the only real option is to basically have a flat network or Double NAT because of how they've configured the ONT to be the gateway. They're more consumer based. The switch itself isn't really a router.

If you went with a provider like Quic (not an endorsement, but they seem pretty good) and use a router that can do 2Gbit you've got a whole lot more power in what you can do with the traffic coming into your network. There are for example a few routers in the Mikrotik name that are complex, but have a craptonne of power to do some pretty neat things with. Or you can build your own router out of a x86 PC along with PFSense / a few 2.5Gbit NIC's which is a rather cheap way of going too.

There are a number of options to do this cheaply if you're really keen on learning - my pick of the lot would be the PFSense / OPNSense option. This PC for example is rather cheap, tiny but seriously cool:

https://www.servethehome.com/smallest-10gbps-router-ikoolcore-r1-review-intel-n6005-vmware-ubunutu-pfsense-opnsense-proxmox/

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allio

864 posts

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#3061338 11-Apr-2023 10:02

Who in the world is both a) wanting faster than gigabit WAN access and prepared to pay a premium for it, and b) wanting to use their ONT as their router? Surely zero people? I would drop that ISP immediately. I can't believe they even offer hyperfibre with that policy.

alaw005

26 posts

Geek

#3061613 11-Apr-2023 18:37

allio:
Who in the world is both a) wanting faster than gigabit WAN access and prepared to pay a premium for it, and b) wanting to use their ONT as their router? Surely zero people? I would drop that ISP immediately. I can't believe they even offer hyperfibre with that policy.

I think I've come to this conclusion ... why a) pay for what I dont need and b) not be able to configure for what I do need!

alaw005

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#3061625 11-Apr-2023 18:47

michaelmurfy:
That switch is total overkill. But with the provider you're with the only real option is to basically have a flat network or Double NAT because of how they've configured the ONT to be the gateway. They're more consumer based. The switch itself isn't really a router.

If you went with a provider like Quic (not an endorsement, but they seem pretty good) and use a router that can do 2Gbit you've got a whole lot more power in what you can do with the traffic coming into your network. There are for example a few routers in the Mikrotik name that are complex, but have a craptonne of power to do some pretty neat things with. Or you can build your own router out of a x86 PC along with PFSense / a few 2.5Gbit NIC's which is a rather cheap way of going too.

There are a number of options to do this cheaply if you're really keen on learning - my pick of the lot would be the PFSense / OPNSense option. This PC for example is rather cheap, tiny but seriously cool:

https://www.servethehome.com/smallest-10gbps-router-ikoolcore-r1-review-intel-n6005-vmware-ubunutu-pfsense-opnsense-proxmox/

This is an interesting idea. I could maybe get a dual 2.5G NIC and install OPNSense as VM on unraid. But wouldn't I still have the ONT and double NAT even with another provider?

Spyware

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#3061637 11-Apr-2023 19:21

It's only the aforeunmentionable ISP that configures ONT in RGW mode.

Spark Max Fibre using Mikrotik CCR1009-8G-1S-1S+, CRS125-24G-1S, Unifi UAP, U6-Pro, UAP-AC-M-Pro, Apple TV 4K (2022), Apple TV 4K (2017), iPad Air 1st gen, iPad Air 4th gen, iPhone 13, SkyNZ3151 (the white box). If it doesn't move then it's data cabled.

michaelmurfy

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#3061638 11-Apr-2023 19:24

If you went with basically any other ISP than the one you’re with they’ll allow you to put your ont into pass through mode. Would recommend the switch 😊

Not naming the ISP you’re with as you haven’t mentioned it but I’m sure people on here can guess. But yeah a router like that sounds perfect for you even if it is a VM on UnRaid (which is indeed possible). That little PC though is crazy cool and I want one for that reason.

PANiCnz

936 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3061701 12-Apr-2023 07:19

Be warned that the SFP+ ports on your switch probably won't do 2.5gbe, the switch is too old.

If you go the DIY router route stick to 10gbe SFP+.

alaw005

26 posts

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#3061717 12-Apr-2023 09:01

PANiCnz: Be warned that the SFP+ ports on your switch probably won't do 2.5gbe, the switch is too old.

If you go the DIY router route stick to 10gbe SFP+.

I was just now trying to decide 2.5Gb or 10G for router. I had almost settled on 2.5Gb here https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/aw/d/B07XJ8CMQX/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A4XRJ8S0WXSO0&psc=1

As 10G is twice price but still bargain compared to cost 10G routers https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/aw/d/B088PRQRHG/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A4XRJ8S0WXSO0&psc=1

I'm now thinking could dust off old N40L microserver with 32GB running TrueNAS and put in above low profile NIC with OPNsense as VM.

PANiCnz

936 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3063189 13-Apr-2023 12:09

Your switch likely won't support 2.5gbe, so if you go that route you'll need to budget for a new switch. STH did a good article recently on cheap 2.5gbe switch's. Also, with SPF+ ports you'll need to budget for SPF+ to RJ45 transceivers.

Re 10Gbe, just buy the network cards off eBay or TradeMe and skip Amazon. 10Gbe has been commonplace in enterprise environments for years, thus it can be picked up cheap secondhand. 2.5GBe is a newer standard and can carry a price premium.

Mini PC's off Aliexpress are pretty popular for use as a firewall, probably a lot more energy efficient than a N40L. Alternatively look at something like the HP thin client I linked to earlier where you can add a NIC of your choosing.

allio

864 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3063216 13-Apr-2023 12:50

With SFP+ it doesn't really matter how old the switch is, because it's down to the SFP+ module. The switch will just see it as a 10Gbe link and the module will do the negotiation with the other end. Most newer modules do support 2.5, including the $60 one I got from Aliexpress.

An old 10Gbe copper switch will absolutely not do multigig (2.5/5) so you're correct there.

PANiCnz

936 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3063225 13-Apr-2023 13:10

allio:

With SFP+ it doesn't really matter how old the switch is, because it's down to the SFP+ module. The switch will just see it as a 10Gbe link and the module will do the negotiation with the other end. Most newer modules do support 2.5, including the $60 one I got from Aliexpress.

I've seen very mixed reports online, I wouldn't say this is a given. I've got a TL-SM410U on my desk to test in my Brocade ICX 6450, but I'm not confident. This is an interesting read on the subject, but it feels reasonably inconclusive.

allio

864 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3063252 13-Apr-2023 14:47

PANiCnz:

I've seen very mixed reports online, I wouldn't say this is a given. I've got a TL-SM410U on my desk to test in my Brocade ICX 6450, but I'm not confident. This is an interesting read on the subject, but it feels reasonably inconclusive.

It is a bit confusing. What I take from that forum thread is that not all switches will work with 2.5Gbe SFP+ transceivers (and I'd say it's a near 100% safe bet that OP's switch won't). However, all SFP+ switches will work with 1Gbe or 10Gbe transceivers. Of those 10Gbe transceivers, some have the ability to negotiate multigig. The switch thinks it's got a 10Gbe link that it only ever receives 2.5Gb on, unaware that the transceiver has negotiated a 2.5Gbe link with the other end.

In other words: 2.5Gbe SFP+ ability is a nice bonus because it allows you to use cheaper transceivers, but as long as you're prepared to buy 10Gbe transceivers you can do 2.5Gbe on any SFP+ switch.

I think. I've only tested this on my own equipment (Engenius switch with ONTi 10Gbe SFP+ transceiver). Will be interesting to see what result you get on your Brocade - based on that thread it seems highly unlikely to work. Good to know as I very nearly ordered a 2.5Gbe transceiver...

Edit: more reading suggests that the switch being unaware that its "10Gbe" link is actually 2.5Gbe can introduce some issues:

You need to enable flow control for [a specific Aquantia SFP+ module] to work well in both directions simultaneously. A quick wireshark dump shows that the module constantly introduces pause frames to shape the traffic, and it works well. I realize many “experts” will argue flow control is a no-no, but that’s what the trick the SFP uses to live up to its promises.

I tried a bunch of other “multigig” SFP modules, and while they perform well in 1 direction, the performance is usually abysmal in the other direction, tons of retries, and flow control does not help.

Unfortunately, most “experts” tend to test in 1 direction, which tends to mask the limitations of the SFPs. I have yet to see a single test pumping traffic in both directions simultaneously.

So you may be correct after all. 10Gbe SFP+ to 2.5Gbe will "work" with certain transceivers, but you may need a very specific transceiver (i.e. one using an Aquantia chipset) to get performance as good as native copper to copper due to its ability to use pause frames. Other transceivers may work poorly or not at all. A 2.5Gbe transceiver avoids this issue, but there's very limited switch support for these.

In other words: stick to fibre -> fibre or copper -> copper wherever humanly possible. Such a shame that the Hyperfibre ONT is copper only as copper 10Gbe gear is ridiculously expensive.

allio

864 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3063267 13-Apr-2023 15:42

alaw005:

I was just now trying to decide 2.5Gb or 10G for router. I had almost settled on 2.5Gb here https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/aw/d/B07XJ8CMQX/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A4XRJ8S0WXSO0&psc=1

As 10G is twice price but still bargain compared to cost 10G routers https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/aw/d/B088PRQRHG/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A4XRJ8S0WXSO0&psc=1

I'm now thinking could dust off old N40L microserver with 32GB running TrueNAS and put in above low profile NIC with OPNsense as VM.

To avoid the issue I'm banging on about above, I would go with the 10Gbe Intel card. So you'd have 10Gbe copper -> copper from ONT to router, then 10Gbe copper to 10Gb SFP+ transceiver on your switch. Remember that you'll need an 8x PCI-e slot.

alaw005

26 posts

Geek

#3063308 13-Apr-2023 18:12

allio:
To avoid the issue I'm banging on about above, I would go with the 10Gbe Intel card. So you'd have 10Gbe copper -> copper from ONT to router, then 10Gbe copper to 10Gb SFP+ transceiver on your switch. Remember that you'll need an 8x PCI-e slot.

Interesting discussion and based on that will definitely stick with 10G option. I'm interest in the earlier ebay suggestion, didn't realise they ship to NZ, if can get cheaper dual card.

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