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78 posts

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  Reply # 1179711 19-Nov-2014 16:45
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So if I am faced with replacement, would I not be better off replacing with 240V GU10 style (so long as they fit in the hosuing) and do away with the transfomer completely.



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  Reply # 1179712 19-Nov-2014 16:45
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Niel: If you live in the house, then you can replace the light fitting (with similar type) yourself as long as you don't change (extend) wiring.  No need for an electrician.

http://www.qualityledlighting.co.nz/
Electrician in Wellington that got fittings certified to NZ-specific standards.  You can pick the exact colour temperature you want (we got 4000K).  I've replaced ~30 fittings in my house, just did not bother with the garage and outside.  Cost a fair bit, but done once and done right with good quality parts locally supplied at a reasonable price.


$50 is $29 cheaper than lighting plus for drop ins, good price.

Going by the install specs of this (insulation over the fitting) im picking mine would be fine to run abutted. 

Reading up about how LEDs get rid of heat it (induction via heat sink, vs radiant) seems having them in the halogen cans is actually a bad idea and running them with the domes of the can off is better.

Ive got my sparky coming over tomorrow to look at a dud halogen transformer and will ask about options to run my $4.50 jobbies. If it all works out I will have upgraded the whole house (35 lights) for $150NZD.



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  Reply # 1179717 19-Nov-2014 16:48
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You can also do more than one lamp per power supply if you have a DC outputting one with enough watts, and are able to use the current mains wiring to pull new 2 core stuff between the downlights.

I swapped out several single mains big hole downlights and some halogens for a 4 lamp MR16 square fitting, with 8 and 12 LED's in total on a single 150W transformer that came with one of the used quad downlights depending on cable access.




Richard rich.ms



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  Reply # 1179732 19-Nov-2014 17:08
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nicmair: So if I am faced with replacement, would I not be better off replacing with 240V GU10 style (so long as they fit in the hosuing) and do away with the transfomer completely.


GU10 have transformer\driver in base. If you look at a proper external 12V driver for GU5.3 and the what they put in the base of a GU10 youll see why GU5.3 have better efficiency, life and quality of light output.

As for being cheaper.

gu5.3 12V you are looking at $12.50 per driver and $5 per bulb + wiring in the driver

gu10 you are looking at about $10 per bulb + $10 for a gu10 fitting + removing transformer and re-splicing mains wires


About the same cost either way, but gu5.3 has more benefits.


NOTE: for GU5.3 bulbs I would bother paying the exorbitant price of $20NZ a GU5.3 bulb, Bunnings is fair at $10 for GU10...but there are trusted suppliers on Aliexpress that are CE and ROHS certified making good products. Just look out for the usual things

 

- good feedback
- fulfilled orders
- pictures of internals
- fair price (not the cheapest)
- small batch testing before ordering in bulk

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  Reply # 1179830 19-Nov-2014 21:06
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A mains rated LED lamp will always run hotter and be less reliable than one with an external power supply (like the web site I've linked to).  This is because in addition to being constrained by a tiny space for a heat sink inside a confined fitting, a 240V bulb also has the power supply built into the base which dissipates approximately 15% due to its inefficiencies.  And the cheap bulbs from overseas have not been tested for EMC/EMI compliance including coping with surges.  Best is to do it right.




You can never have enough Volvos!




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  Reply # 1179974 20-Nov-2014 09:42
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Niel: A mains rated LED lamp will always run hotter and be less reliable than one with an external power supply (like the web site I've linked to).  This is because in addition to being constrained by a tiny space for a heat sink inside a confined fitting, a 240V bulb also has the power supply built into the base which dissipates approximately 15% due to its inefficiencies.  And the cheap bulbs from overseas have not been tested for EMC/EMI compliance including coping with surges.  Best is to do it right.

 

 

 

The bulbs that do pass EMC/EMI interference most likely started their life as cheap bulbs from overseas, these companies that test a batch of LEDs (most likely at little cost) from a Chinese supplier then use that compliance to justify every subsequent bulb sold at an some elevated price to feed their disgusting corporate profits.

Consumers think there is some special voodoo (ie Pixie Blood) that Phillips or Big Brands use to make their bulbs, in reality there isn't really that many specialized components in an MR16 other than the COB unit itself. Certainly not enough to justify $20-25 per bulb.

Break it down for a $5NZ chinese bulb (shipped)

 

- Epistar Cob, 80 cents
- plastic base, 10 cents
- reflector, 40 cents
- heat sink, $1
- electronics in base, 50 cents
- assembly, $1
- ce and rohs cert, 1 cent
- packaging, 20 cents
- postage, 40 cents
- profit, 60 cents

for a Phillips $20 MR16, you might be able to add $3 for higher quality components and possibly assembly, but >50% of the bulb cost will still be profit for Phillips (226 million euro in 2012), and profit for the retailer.


Might be different for me because i'm willing to take a punt and trial a house load of bulbs for <$150NZ, even if they only last 3 years, still work out cheaper over the course of 3 replacements.

 

For someone who want to install once and not worry about the bulb for 10 years then great, spend $20.

 






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  Reply # 1180061 20-Nov-2014 12:26
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I think it's actually the opposite...

Phillips contracts someone in China to make bulbs at (say) $10 a shot, with high quality standards. The ones that fail the testing are supposed to be destroyed, but are in fact on-sold to some third party for (say) $1 each. These are then retested to a lower standard (i.e. do they appear to work adequately?). If they pass this, they're sold at $5 a shot.

In this scheme of things, you can perhaps guarantee that any cheap bulb will NOT meet Phillips' standards. They may still be adequate for your standards, or not.

The extra $15 you pay to Phillips is for the guarantee. And Phillips' profits.



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  Reply # 1180115 20-Nov-2014 13:48
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frankv: I think it's actually the opposite...

Phillips contracts someone in China to make bulbs at (say) $10 a shot, with high quality standards. The ones that fail the testing are supposed to be destroyed, but are in fact on-sold to some third party for (say) $1 each. These are then retested to a lower standard (i.e. do they appear to work adequately?). If they pass this, they're sold at $5 a shot.

In this scheme of things, you can perhaps guarantee that any cheap bulb will NOT meet Phillips' standards. They may still be adequate for your standards, or not.

The extra $15 you pay to Phillips is for the guarantee. And Phillips' profits.


Yep no doubt that can happen to, ie Magpul Dynamics with their PTS and Milspec ranges, both made in China, cant really tell the difference but one passes milspec cert the other is suitable for paintball\range use.

I also hear that some of those companies sell off the actual product without branded boxes, ie the customer (Phillips) accept that in exchange for cheap manufacturing the company are allowed (or mabey not) to see off some unbranded units on the cheap.

I purchase optics on Aliexpress and found a flip to side magnifier I wanted, after a bit of talking direct with company I established they were the manufacturer for the same big brand item at more than double the price....basically selling units before branding applied and selling in unbranded boxes.

As you say though if you don't mind changing a cheap bulb every 3 years, vs every 10 years for a Phillips (at 4 times the price) then you are still winning the money saving game.



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  Reply # 1190367 8-Dec-2014 09:49
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Well I finished the upgrade over the weekend, whipped all the domes\tops off my Halogen cans and installed the LEDs

 

 

 

Some further testing I did confirmed

 

a) the plastic on the led base is of the non flammable type, it bubbled but never held a flame

b) running for 3 hours in ceiling netted about 50 degrees C on the heatsink, and around 40 degrees on plastic base

c) my insulation (Bradford gold) is literally fireproof, couldnt get it to light, just shrivel up


So safety wise i'm happy

ONe question for you electrical folk though, 2 of my circuits on dimmers required me to have a halogen installed into the circuit otherwise the lights would flicker, the non dimmer circuits were fine and able to run the LEDs with zero flickering. Dont think it will be load related as my transformers are 10-60W rated and im running 12W LED.

 

 



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  Reply # 1190483 8-Dec-2014 11:41
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Think I may have figured out the issue, the dimmer module we are running is possible Leading Edge, so requires a Halogen in circuit in order to provide enough current to "Latch" the dimmer control.

So its possible I need to change to a trailing edge, or just spend a little extra and get a universal dimmer module...which for our Modena 800 series is like $85 a unit.

These particular lights are not used that much so perhaps its cheaper overall to keep a single 50W halogen in the circuit.

Another possibility is finding a smart led driver that will latch the dimmer and having that in the system vs the 50W halogen.

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