Smart meters - yay or nay ?

Forums › Gadgets, robotics, home automation, electronics (including wearables) › Smart meters - yay or nay ?

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953 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2386905 7-Jan-2020 18:20

DS248:

My experience with Nova is that they provide very little usable info to the customer. Best I managed to get was a csv file with daily readings emailed to me for 3 months. Was going to cost to get any more than 3 per 12 months.

[...]

All of the above sounds like incompetence on Nova's part. I have been in numerous properties with smart meters, oftentimes inside the house, and never in all my years had to let a meter person in to read the meter manually. However, your meter may not be reporting (although still collecting half-hourly information). The Electricity Code also permits you to have 4 requests per 12-month period, not 3. They're not required to charge a fee to do so. In any case, all of the providers I have used (Meridian, Powershop, Electric Kiwi & Flick) all had an online portal where I could download the consumption information instantly, digitally & for free.

PolicyGuy:

Another thing to remember is that at least some retailers who install "smart" meters won't allow other retailers access to the half-hour consumption data if the customer uses a different retailer.

I know this is true because the house I moved into a year ago has a TrustPower "smart" meter, but Genesis have to send a meter reader round every two months.
I understand (but not from personal experience) that Genesis won't share data from their meters with other retailers.

No. This just simply means that Genesis does not want to pay whatever TrustPower are charging to use their meter half-hourly. There is nothing preventing them from doing this, except the commercial decision (as far as I am aware).

PolicyGuy:

Maybe I ought to discuss this with the Commerce Commission

You really need to be discussing that with the Electricity Authority.

mattwnz:

I just can't understand why we don't have those in NZ. Normally NZ is ahead of the UK when it comes to this sort of thing. Even the apps that companies like Electric kiwi provide, are delayed by a day.

There is a reconciliation process that goes on in the MEP (Metering Equipment Providers) data warehouse which usually runs overnight, hence the one day delay. I have noticed some retailers also introduce a further delay (presumably for a similar reason). As a retailer, you can ask your MEP to receive the data more often but the cost is considerably higher due to the ad-hoc nature (e.g. increased messaging transmission costs). There is also the ability to install a consumer-accessible radio in the most common smart meters, however again this comes back to cost. As far as I am aware there is no mass market offering of this (Genesis offers a clamp solution, but this is not done using the meter itself).

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gregmcc

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#2386925 7-Jan-2020 19:15

rb99:

Nova informs us that they'll be replacing our meter with a smart meter in the next few months.

Its described as an upgrade. Should I actually be thinking -

a) yay, finally, its an upgrade, welcome to the 21st century

b) oh crap, trouble and a mysterious increase in usage / charges

c) who cares...

I went thru this with Genesis a few years back, the conceded that the meters aren't actually "Smart" they offered no benefit to me, all the benefit was for Genesis and they weren't prepared to extend any of that benefit to me, so I said no.

They told me that some one was just going to turn up and change it anyway, again I said no and that the meter board is my property and you need to have permission before you work on my property. I also put a laminated note in the meterboard to that effect. I still have my plain old dumb meter, I don't pay any more or less than someone else with a smart meter.

noddy76

55 posts

Master Geek

#2387036 7-Jan-2020 20:59

snnet:

richms:

The old mechanical meters are generally all gummed up and under reading, so if you have one of those you may be in for a significant surprise on the new meter. I know people who used to brag that their powerbills were half mine being sprung with a $600 bill after the meter went in, and its all the meters fault not the fact that they used the power of course.

As richms says, if you get a bigger bill with a smart meter than usual it's because your old one was running slower. I've never understood people's arguments that smart meters cause all kinds of illnesses when they essentially stick the same technology on the side of their face when they make a cellphone call. (Some of the "lite" versions of smart meters talk to eachother before they find a way out to the retailer, however)

for a giggle.. https://www.socialcredit.nz/energy Forth item down.

Geektastic

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#2387096 7-Jan-2020 23:28

I am amazed we do not have them for water as well to be honest.

davidcole

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#2387137 8-Jan-2020 06:14

Geektastic:
I am amazed we do not have them for water as well to be honest.

And gas. They still have to send someone every 2nd month

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gregmcc

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#2387138 8-Jan-2020 06:21

davidcole:
Geektastic:

I am amazed we do not have them for water as well to be honest.

And gas. They still have to send someone every 2nd month

There is a really good reason for this, the 1 thing all these smart meters would require to work - power - is there power anywhere near where the current water and gas meters are? Who would pay for power to get there? and there is the reason - no one wants to pay the $2-$3K just to get power to your water meter location, let alone the cost of the smart water meter.

kingjj

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#2387139 8-Jan-2020 06:30

gregmcc:

davidcole:
Geektastic:

I am amazed we do not have them for water as well to be honest.

And gas. They still have to send someone every 2nd month

There is a really good reason for this, the 1 thing all these smart meters would require to work - power - is there power anywhere near where the current water and gas meters are? Who would pay for power to get there? and there is the reason - no one wants to pay the $2-$3K just to get power to your water meter location, let alone the cost of the smart water meter.

Hypothetically and asked with no engineering knowledge at all, in regards to water metres, could a metre use the pressure of the water passing thru to turn a small generator that could provide enough power to run an efficient 'smart' water metre? Assuming the standard water pressure was 200 kPa, surely that would be enough to power a small generator in the metre?

As for Smart Metres in general, I personally have no issue with them and welcome anything that provides even a small boost to customer choice and application. We have used Flick and Electric Kiwi to great effect in the past in thanks to the 30 minute reporting window, I wouldn't go back to one of the bigger Genetailers now that I've experienced the more nimble small providers that a smart metre allows.

E3xtc

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Ultimate Geek

#2387147 8-Jan-2020 07:37

richms:

Until we all move to a real time pricing model then its irrelevant about what you are using when unless you are tracking down loads that you don't expect.

Im still really annoyed that we have no smart water meters that would allow for leaks to be detected a lot earlier. At least Auckland gets readings every second month now, but it used to be much worse. If they want me to pay monthly they should at least read it monthly for that.

Just pay it bi-monthly :P there are (from memory) no charges for late payment, so pay on the actual reading, which will normalise out the estimated reading from the month before :D

snnet

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#2387151 8-Jan-2020 07:50

E3xtc:

richms:

Until we all move to a real time pricing model then its irrelevant about what you are using when unless you are tracking down loads that you don't expect.

Im still really annoyed that we have no smart water meters that would allow for leaks to be detected a lot earlier. At least Auckland gets readings every second month now, but it used to be much worse. If they want me to pay monthly they should at least read it monthly for that.

Just pay it bi-monthly :P there are (from memory) no charges for late payment, so pay on the actual reading, which will normalise out the estimated reading from the month before :D

On a side note with water, has anyone looked at their Watercare (auckland area) bill for December? I just went to have a look at mine and all I can see are 0.00L consumption and just fixed charges? I know I used about the same amount of water in December as I usually do! Just curious if it's a widespread glitch or just me, maybe they didn't read it (it says actual read)

davidcole

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#2387158 8-Jan-2020 08:08

gregmcc:

There is a really good reason for this, the 1 thing all these smart meters would require to work - power - is there power anywhere near where the current water and gas meters are? Who would pay for power to get there? and there is the reason - no one wants to pay the $2-$3K just to get power to your water meter location, let alone the cost of the smart water meter.

Or, they could run a remote probe to the gas meter....no-one said that the meter has to sit right on top of it. They'll do it at some point because it's self serving to the companies that have to read it.

gulfa

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#2387166 8-Jan-2020 08:36

Interesting posts, very appropriate,good reading Having my meter changed to a Smart Meter today with Genesis

Jase2985

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#2387176 8-Jan-2020 09:01

snnet:

On a side note with water, has anyone looked at their Watercare (auckland area) bill for December? I just went to have a look at mine and all I can see are 0.00L consumption and just fixed charges? I know I used about the same amount of water in December as I usually do! Just curious if it's a widespread glitch or just me, maybe they didn't read it (it says actual read)

maybe just you? mine is fine, but was an estimate for last month

Paul1977

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Uber Geek

#2387183 8-Jan-2020 09:14

I pushed to get a smart meter installed as ours is on older house with the meter inside, and I didn't like the idea of the power company having a set of keys to my house to come in and read the meter when we weren't home.

Initially this resulted in heaps of estimates, with an eventual "catch-up". Sometimes this meant a small catch-up-bill, sometimes a very large one. When our power company started to allow self-reads to be entered online we started doing that, but they would only allow a certain number of those before again insisting someone come onsite.

I asked for a smart meter to be installed, and they said I wasn't scheduled for ages and if I wanted it earlier I'd have to pay for it. Instead I contacted a different provider (PowerShop) and said I'd change to them if they installed a smart meter, and they did without hassle.

While real-time power usage stats would be much better, I personally think even the half-hourly (and 24-48 hour delayed) info is helpful in seeing where your power is going. And it lets you know in advance if a bigger than normal bill is coming.

kotuku4

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#2387191 8-Jan-2020 09:21

For water metering Marlborough District Council has trails underway with Sensus 640C/640MC smart meters. Renwick and Havelock.

These use short range radio frequency comms <500m, can be linked to other networks, or remote read walk or drive.

Long life lithium battery, with low battery alarm.

All renewed water take consents require electronic water meters with data logging, national standard? And most council rivers, irrigation schemes, pumps, control gates, weirs etc have telemetry. With some environmental data live on public website, weather stations and river flows.

evilengineer

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Ultimate Geek

#2387203 8-Jan-2020 09:35

PolicyGuy:

This means that

The retailer who owns the meter probably still has access to the half-hour data for a premises for which they are no longer the retailer;
The customer does not have access to their own consumption data; and
The customer cannot change to a retail offering that depends on the availability of half-hour data
Maybe I ought to discuss this with the Commerce Commission

If that first point is even remotely true then it's an absolute shocker!

What possible justification is there for a retailer to have access to live data for a customer that they no longer have a commercial relationship with?

I mean, the privacy implications are huge. They basically know if the house is empty during the day, what time people tend to get home, whether they're on holiday or not and even when the household goes to bed and gets up in the morning.

If that's happening and it doesn't break all sorts of existing data protection and privacy legislation then the Government should be getting involved.

And that last point, if true, is a serious hindrance to competition.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for the consumer to expect the following:

That any data collected is for a clearly defined purpose, proportionate and protected.
An easy means is available (i.e. wireless reader device) for a customer to get real time consumption data that's collected locally and is independent of the meter's 1/2hr phone-home. Even if it's optional with an additional charge for the reader.
Smart meters are inter operable between suppliers and switching between power companies is as easy as changing ISP

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