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  Reply # 1996301 15-Apr-2018 09:48
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I'm a little confused. Do you mean the cryptography, a key distribution center (KDC)?

How does that apply to the locality of a website, and hence the laws?

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  Reply # 1996332 15-Apr-2018 09:59
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MikeB4: If MSD agencies we're to promote sex industry jobs there would be a tsunami of righteous indication in the press, social media and forums including GZ.

 

The press, social media and forums including GZ need to get a life and grow up. Sex is perfectly natural. It is part of being human and it is part of being alive. No-one forces anyone to visit a brothel. Get over it.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1996404 15-Apr-2018 11:50
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kingdragonfly: I'm a little confused. Do you mean the cryptography, a key distribution center (KDC)?

How does that apply to the locality of a website, and hence the laws?


Kim Dotcom.







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  Reply # 1996425 15-Apr-2018 12:16
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MikeB4: If MSD agencies we're to promote sex industry jobs there would be a tsunami of righteous indication in the press, social media and forums including GZ.

"Social media is something of a double-edged sword.

At its best, social media offers unprecedented opportunities for marginalized people to speak and bring much needed attention to the issues they face.

At its worst, social media also offers 'everyone' an unprecedented opportunity to share in collective outrage without reflection."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxane_Gay

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  Reply # 1996881 16-Apr-2018 10:48
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Lets be honest here
the prostitution 'industry' is riddled with abuse, drug use ,slavery(yes) , crime and misery

 

a few squeaky clean brothel owners doesnt reflect the industry as a whole


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  Reply # 1996888 16-Apr-2018 10:58
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1101:

 

Lets be honest here
the prostitution 'industry' is riddled with abuse, drug use ,slavery(yes) , crime and misery

 

a few squeaky clean brothel owners doesnt reflect the industry as a whole

 

 

You may be right but do you actually know that or are you just guessing?

 

Some restaurants have been shown to exploit immigrant staff to the point of slavery. Another one was in the news recently.

 

Some finance companies charge usurious interest and engage in money laundering. A few of these have been in the news in the past. 

 

Some lawyers are dishonest, immoral and corrupt. These turn up in the news on a more or less regular basis.

 

Etcetera, etcetera. 

 

Yet none of these 'industries' are prohibited from advertising their services. Why should prostitutes be treated any differently?

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1996889 16-Apr-2018 10:58
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A quick google shows plenty of websites where the services of prostitutes are advertised. 

 

Perhaps some of those websites could have a situations vacant section.





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  Reply # 1997159 16-Apr-2018 15:26
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There are a couple of points to make:
1 - It is not legal in this country - it is decriminalised. There is a difference and just like TM, Seek and MSD wont advertise marijuana if it is decriminalized they wont advertise prostitution. Prostitution is not a legalised activity!

 

2 - It doesn't matter if it is the oldest profession in the world - human behaviour at the wrong end of the ethical scale has been around as long as humans have been around. It doesn't make it right. If the argument of longevity made things right then murder, rape, arson and mercenarys would also be okay. That's a null argument.

 

3 - Prostitution - e.g. having sex with your non spouse is touching an area of human activity in a way that runs counter to what we hold most dear. Ask 1000 wives if it is alright for their husband to go bang another woman - even if they have paid for it and you'll probably find 99.99 percent say no way. turn that around to husbands asking if it is okay for their wives to bang other guys - and if they don't punch your lights out you'll probably find it is darn near 99.99% as well.

 

Outside of marriage - murders, beatings and assault are a common outcome of finding your partner has been bumping uglies with someone other than you - it doesn't matter if it is paid or free - the general feeling is about the same.

 

NZ's moral stance on sex leaves us as a nation where we have huge incidences of STD's - in young folk / teenagers etc, high preganancy and high abortion. None of those are healthy.  A condom is not the answer.

 

Well run brothels may encourage contraception, make sure their staff have regular STD checks (why would you need that if the profession is a safe one?)  but at the end of the day it is not a place your partner will want you going or working. Add in aids, hepatitus, herpes and what ever else is coming down the pipe towards us and prostitution is not a safe or wanted option.

 

Yes - I know - pros wouldn't survive without guys wanting it - but we all know guys think with their little head, not their big head and most of the decisions made with the little head are dumb decisions made in the moment. sin in haste, repent at leisure as the old adage goes..  Guys also make similar decisions while drunk - which leads to drunk driving. To claim it is something we do which therefore makes it right is also a null argument.

 

 

 

The only thing I would say in defence of a place that is supposedly like the Bach claims to be is it provides a safer working environment - but lets face it - how many of us would enjoy performing fellatio on some guy who turns up, whom we have no feeling for and who is using us as not much more than an autonomous blow up doll?

 

Sure women may be getting paid to "do what they did on kinder for free" - but I bet at least on kinder they got to swipe no to the ugly, rude and smelly options. A brothel who had picky staff wouldn't last long and if I am forced to do things I don't want to for cash - I'd rather pack shelves, pick fruit, work under a cows tail milking or sitting in an office pushing meaningless paper than be used as waste container by some horny guy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





nunz

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  Reply # 1997167 16-Apr-2018 15:38
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kingdragonfly: I was watching the local NZ show "The Project."

The owner of "The Bach", a legal brothel was on the show. She also was included in a small piece in the New York Daily

I am the owner of The Bach (rhym...

Does sex work cheapen sex? That’s a matter of opinion. But I’ll tell you what most of my ladies say to me, when they leave work with a smile and a fistful of cash: "I can’t believe I was doing this on Tinder for free!"


...

However a career is usually an adult pursuit. Even the religious schooled 12 year old would know prostitution is the world's oldest profession.

There are 46 verses in the Bible regarding prostitution
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Prostitution

Perhaps Seek and Trademe should allow the career to be advertised in the jobs section? It strikes me as judgmental, and puritanical.

 

 

 

I find it odd you quote a book on the topic of prostitution where the main premise can be summed up by

 

Leviticus 19:29

 

'Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.

 

or Paul / 1 Corinthians - Do not join your body with a prostitute - do you not know your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

Yet you quote it as pro prostitution? did you read the verses? If you are using the bible to say it is okay then you might want to check your reading a bit :)

 

 

 

or did you mean that because it is in the Bible it must be true - so therefore  God, creation, the flood, sin, etc are also true.

 

 

 

or - and this I think was your argument - because a religiously schooled 12 year old child knows aobut it by reading the bible we should allow it or not hide it. So by that argument we should depict incest (Lots two daughters), violent betrayal and murder (Cain / Abel), Rape (Dinah - daughter of the 12 sons of Jacob), and other violent / sexual acts where kids can see them? Our standards have slipped a long way from the playboys being in a brown paper bag, top shelf, inside the shop ( looking at Cosmo and a few others is as good as old playboys used to be)  but do we seriously want to advertise everything found in the bible? where kids can see it? and say thay are okay?

 

You have made an argument that knowledge make it moral / right. That is a false argument. Just coz a 12 year old saw her dad blow torch her mums face off wouldn't give us any cause to advertise it on trademe or show imagery of it - yet it is legal in some countries. ( yes the bible is from another country - not NZ so whatever  12 years olds see and know about anywhere in the world must be okay according to your argument).

 

 

 

 

 

 





nunz

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  Reply # 1997170 16-Apr-2018 15:47
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I'm a little confused here - and sorry if the this is a slight hijack.

 

"Decriminalized" means it is still illegal but you won't face criminal charges, so fines etc.
"Legalized" means it is legal.
Haven't really thought about it but prostitution if NZ is effectively legal (brothels operate with-out fear of prosecution - except maybe heath & safety act) now what don't we just say it is legalized?

 


But saying that it is within the rights of a company not to run particular advertisements if they disagree with them as long as they don't discriminate according to the race relations act. Pretty sure job descriptions do not fall under this act :)

 

I think companies should have this right - it is an important part of their "brand"

 

And I think not allowing a prostitute to advertise on Trademe is any different to Trademe not advertising a particular animal breed or The Warehouse not selling R18 video games.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1997173 16-Apr-2018 15:56
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KrazyKid:

 

I'm a little confused here - and sorry if the this is a slight hijack.

 

"Decriminalized" means it is still illegal but you won't face criminal charges, so fines etc.
"Legalized" means it is legal.
Haven't really thought about it but prostitution if NZ is effectively legal (brothels operate with-out fear of prosecution - except maybe heath & safety act) now what don't we just say it is legalized?

 


But saying that it is within the rights of a company not to run particular advertisements if they disagree with them as long as they don't discriminate according to the race relations act. Pretty sure job descriptions do not fall under this act :)

 

I think companies should have this right - it is an important part of their "brand"

 

And I think not allowing a prostitute to advertise on Trademe is any different to Trademe not advertising a particular animal breed or The Warehouse not selling R18 video games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Decriminalisation means we believe as a country that said activity is wrong or dubious - but for whatever reason we wont get police to arrest for doing it.

 

Legalisation says it is okay - go do it and here are the rules nad regulations around it.

 

Decriminalisation of prostituion was mostly bought about by a compassionate stand towards prostitutes. It was recognized that they may be victims in the transaction or that to pick on them and not the person procuring the services is morally wrong.

 

Before decriminalisation a pro had no protection under the law - couldn't approach police for help without getting arrested. Now they can be protected by the law - while not being in fear of arrest when seeking help.

 

It keeps them protected from rape, theft, assult and a number of other issues and means they can seek medical and legal help if required in the course of their activities.

 

A cynic might also say it means the IRD can take a cut now too or the police are too over whelmed to care about a consenting act.

 

 

 

---

 

Decriminalisation removes all laws and statutes regarding the activity: Legalisation regulates the activity: e.g.  Many builders would love to be decriminalised and not legalized as it would remove all OSH compliance and issues.

 

 

 

A quote:

 

 

Legalization would mean the regulation of prostitution with laws regarding where, when, and how prostitution could take place. Decriminalization eliminates all laws and prohibits the state and law-enforcement officials from intervening in any prostitution-related activities or transactions, unless other laws apply.

 

 

 

 

Here are some of the problems with the legalization model, Smith argues:

 

 

Widely presented as a more tolerant and pragmatic approach, the legalised model still criminalizes those sex workers who cannot or will not fulfil various bureaucratic responsibilities, and therefore retains some of the worst harms of criminalization. It disproportionately excludes sex workers who are already marginalized, like people who use drugs or who are undocumented. This makes their situation more precarious, and so reinforces the power of unscrupulous managers.

 

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/sex-worker-explains-the-difference-between-legalizing-and-decriminalizing-prostitution-2015-6?r=US&IR=T

 





nunz



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  Reply # 1997236 16-Apr-2018 18:54
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nunz: I find it odd you quote a book on the topic of prostitution where the main premise can be summed up by



'Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.


You have obvious strong feeling against prostitution, and I suspect you consider yourself a good Christian.

Leviticus is from the Old Testament. I always find it interesting when a Christian quotes from the Old Testament, because it's definitely R-18 material. King David was brutal by any definition, past or present. And God was frankly pretty petty, vengeful, and insecure, with a smite, smite here and a smite, smite there. There are 107 verses with "smite", usually a a heavy blow or stroke with a weapon or the hand, in the bible.

So onto the New testament, the four gospels were written 35 to 65 years after Jesus' death, so they're not eye witness accounts of Jesus' with Mary Magdalen activities, such as her washing his feet.

The gospels are a written account of often repeated verbal accounts, shaded by time. There are many contradictions. Luke and Mathew stories, of Mary Magdalen at Jesus' feet are completely different accounts

However all gospels agree that Jesus hung out with the harlot Mary Magdalen. Luke identified her as a sinful woman, as well as the women "taken in adultery" that Jesus saved from stoning.

At the wedding feast of Cana, when Jesus famously turned the water into wine, John's wife became lonely and jealous and became a prostitute, and an infamous adulteress. However when Pharisees thrust the unnamed women before Jesus, Jesus refused to condemn her.

Jesus was cool that way. Maybe you should emulate him and be less judgmental.

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  Reply # 1997238 16-Apr-2018 19:02
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Not an industry I really know much about. But on balance I tend to be a libertarian, and providing that everyone is an adult doing so of their own free will, I tend to think that questions of morality are a personal matter rather than one for the state. Particularly in matters of sexuality - be a person gay, straight, limited to one partner, promiscuous or visiting a hooker.

 

Whether or not I approve or have an interest myself is irrelevant, fundamentally its neither my business nor that of the State.

 

And for the avoidance of doubt, I have never gone to a hooker, nor do I have any interest in doing so. But that is, and should be, my personal choice. Not a imposed on me by a politician or clergyman.

 

nunz:

 

There are a couple of points to make:
1 - It is not legal in this country - it is decriminalised. There is a difference and just like TM, Seek and MSD wont advertise marijuana if it is decriminalized they wont advertise prostitution. Prostitution is not a legalised activity!

 

 

It's as good as. In fact, I even know the former Department of Labour Employee who got the job of writing the health and safety regulations when the law changed. It's openly advertised, taxed and regulated by the government. The rest is just hair splitting.

 

And I suspect if marijuana was legal, MSD would happily place jobseekers into good jobs on hemp farms. Plus, they don't advertise other legal jobs. I know for a fact that they refused to take positions from some fruit picking contractors who had been prosecuted for exploitative practices onto their books. And apple picking is certainly legal.

 

nunz:

 

2 - It doesn't matter if it is the oldest profession in the world - human behaviour at the wrong end of the ethical scale has been around as long as humans have been around. It doesn't make it right. If the argument of longevity made things right then murder, rape, arson and mercenarys would also be okay. That's a null argument.

 

 

OK, that's a silly straw man argument. Presumably not everyone who is a party to murder, rape or arson is likely to be both an adult and being murdered, raped or having their house torched of their own free will. In fact definitionally it wouldn't be rape if all parties consented, and you can in fact commit arson of your own property (subject to fire permits).

 

And all of these things are vastly different to two consenting adults having a shag, for money or otherwise.

 

Plus mercenaries are kind of OK and always have been, you can join the French Foreign Legion if you want to (but probably have to reside in France when you leave, it's now kind of tricky to come back here if you do)

 

nunz:

 

3 - Prostitution - e.g. having sex with your non spouse is touching an area of human activity in a way that runs counter to what we hold most dear. Ask 1000 wives if it is alright for their husband to go bang another woman - even if they have paid for it and you'll probably find 99.99 percent say no way. turn that around to husbands asking if it is okay for their wives to bang other guys - and if they don't punch your lights out you'll probably find it is darn near 99.99% as well.

 

 

Yes, but so what? It's still a question of private morality, not one for the State.

 

nunz:

 

NZ's moral stance on sex leaves us as a nation where we have huge incidences of STD's - in young folk / teenagers etc, high preganancy and high abortion. None of those are healthy. A condom is not the answer.

 

 

I'm prepared to cry cobblers on that as well. According to Stats NZ our teen pregnancy rate has halved in the last ten years. That's a big fall. So how do you claim it is getting worse? And while I'm at it, our abortion rate is the lowest it's been in 17 years, so same question?

 

nunz:

 

Well run brothels may encourage contraception, make sure their staff have regular STD checks (why would you need that if the profession is a safe one?) but at the end of the day it is not a place your partner will want you going or working. Add in aids, hepatitus, herpes and what ever else is coming down the pipe towards us and prostitution is not a safe or wanted option.

 

 

Maybe, but regulated and above board is still vastly safer than illegal and on the street. Plus, whether or not someone's partner is comfortable with what they are doing is funadamentally a matter for the two of them, not the State.

 

nunz:

 

To claim it is something we do which therefore makes it right is also a null argument.

 

 

Irrelevant. The point isn't whether it's "right". The point is whether a private sexual matter should be criminalised and banned using the full resources of the State.

 

nunz:

 

Sure women may be getting paid to "do what they did on kinder for free" - but I bet at least on kinder they got to swipe no to the ugly, rude and smelly options. A brothel who had picky staff wouldn't last long and if I am forced to do things I don't want to for cash - I'd rather pack shelves, pick fruit, work under a cows tail milking or sitting in an office pushing meaningless paper than be used as waste container by some horny guy.

 

 

Then don't do it. You have free will don't you? Is it really your problem, or that of the State, if someone else makes a different decision?




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  Reply # 1997247 16-Apr-2018 19:18
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Beautifully written @JimmyH

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  Reply # 1997261 16-Apr-2018 20:01
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1101:

Lets be honest here
the prostitution 'industry' is riddled with abuse, drug use ,slavery(yes) , crime and misery


a few squeaky clean brothel owners doesnt reflect the industry as a whole

also sounds like the police force and most churches. Also I might add, just because people have different moral doesn’t mean one is more moral then the other. What is acceptable for me might not be for someone else.

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