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happyfunball
282 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2083059 3-Sep-2018 10:25
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sbiddle:

 

There are however significant cons to the solution - it is not a case of the eSIM being the best solution for consumers and I certainly wouldn't be the only person who would hate to see the eSIM become the norm. It becomes a means of lock-in that could remove customer choice, and Apple have their own agenda for wanting eSIM to become the de-facto standard. It could very easily allow them to tie service to Apple - where Apple is your telco provider and your only option for an iPhone is to buy an Apple subscription service for use.

 

 

None of the cons of eSims are exclusive to eSims, so are a bit of a red herring.  Apple or Samsung could lock you into their provider at any time, they control the software after all.  

 

eSims don't make that any easier or likely.

 

eSims just remove the *need* to use a plastic SIM card, everything else is the same on the phone side of things.


lyndondrake

175 posts

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  #2083061 3-Sep-2018 10:27
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I think eSims also remove the *ability* of the telco to lock people in? And shift that control to Apple. I guess I trust Apple with that power much more readily than I trust a telco


 
 
 
 


happyfunball
282 posts

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  #2083063 3-Sep-2018 10:32
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lyndondrake:

 

I think eSims also remove the *ability* of the telco to lock people in? And shift that control to Apple. I guess I trust Apple with that power much more readily than I trust a telco

 

 

Yes the current eSim spec doesn't allow a telco to lock a phone to its network, which is a problem for Telco's as they are in the hire purchase business.  They understandably want to force people to pay for the phone, and not everyone can pay for a $1000 phone upfront.

 

eSims are kinda killing that business, so Telco's around the world are trying to figure that out.  Locking phones to their network is the usual solution so they are resisting the current eSim spec and trying to roll out a new one that allows locking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


sbiddle
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  #2083070 3-Sep-2018 10:41
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lyndondrake:

 

Do you feel that the risk is that they stop allowing other providers? That seems like a fairly remote risk, and the other side of the coin (telcos locking customers in) is a proven problem

 

 

Not necessarily, but eSIM goes down the path where lock-in for telco and hardware providers becomes a lot easier than it is now.

 

I also know plenty of people who routinely swap SIM cards between handsets and even the odd drunk with a flat battery who urgently needs to check their phone for messages who can easily do that by swapping SIM cards. Suddenly that is not an option any more.

 

Roaming becomes a nightmare as simply buying a SIM and swapping it is no longer an option. Even if you could easily provision your roaming eSIM, swapping betweeh the two while on holiday would be a nightmare.

 

Other than use cases for small embedded devices and providers such Amazon with Kindle where they want to provide a global service, I don't see any compelling reason at all why the average end users would want to move to an eSIM for their phone when all it's going to do is mean downsides. 

 

 


lyndondrake

175 posts

Master Geek


  #2083072 3-Sep-2018 10:46
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I've never bought a foreign sim. I realise a lot of people do, but there's also a huge user base who prefer not to. Apart from the region-specific LTE band support, there's nothing stopping roaming from working, so if the hardware ever changes then roaming would be fine. In the end roaming is an edge case, albeit important - the real reason telcos don't like it is the challenge it poses to their business model, because Apple can (& will) prevent telcos locking users to a single provider


sbiddle
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  #2083089 3-Sep-2018 11:17
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lyndondrake:

 

I've never bought a foreign sim. I realise a lot of people do, but there's also a huge user base who prefer not to. Apart from the region-specific LTE band support, there's nothing stopping roaming from working, so if the hardware ever changes then roaming would be fine. In the end roaming is an edge case, albeit important - the real reason telcos don't like it is the challenge it poses to their business model, because Apple can (& will) prevent telcos locking users to a single provider

 

 

The market for travel SIM cards and SIM swaps is huge. You're completely underestimating the size of that market and the number of people who want to swap SIM cards when traveling, something that becomes so much more impractical with the eSIM.

 

I'm still not sure why you see eSIM cards removing telco lock-in because it's the exact opposite. People will end up with much higher levels of telco lock-in when they suddenly can't swap SIM cards when roaming and suddenly a hypothetical situation (made possible with the eSIM) where Apple users find that Apple is their only choice when it comes to selecting their provider because Apple can suddenly overnight become the worlds largest global MVNO.

 

Apple may have indicated it's not a current plan but the reality is it's what they should be doing, and I certainly wouldn't want to be betting against them not doing it.

 

 

 

 


geekiegeek
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  #2083097 3-Sep-2018 11:23
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I welcome the Apple Telco overlord :-) the idea of a global provider with a single charging model no matter where I travel sounds like a plus to me.





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happyfunball
282 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2083106 3-Sep-2018 11:38
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sbiddle:

 

The market for travel SIM cards and SIM swaps is huge. You're completely underestimating the size of that market and the number of people who want to swap SIM cards when traveling, something that becomes so much more impractical with the eSIM.

 

 

eSims basically turn cellular connections into Wifi accounts. Imagine you needed a plastic card to connect to a wifi network, and to switch networks, you needed a new card.  Thats exactly what we have now with Cellular links.

 

There is no such limit to eSims, your phone can have multiple profiles (like you can connect to multiple WiFi networks now).  There is no limit to the number, so you can get a local phone number when you travel without losing your existing one.

 

The eSim spec allows for multiple profiles (ie. multiple accounts, numbers and providers) on the same device.

 

When you are traveling you just open up your settings and select a local provider, and off you go with a local phone number.  You set the profile you want to use for data and you're done.

 

This will make traveling so much easier than now, and roaming data with your home telco will suddenly (I predict) become much cheaper :)


happyfunball
282 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2083112 3-Sep-2018 11:41
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geekiegeek:

 

I welcome the Apple Telco overlord :-) the idea of a global provider with a single charging model no matter where I travel sounds like a plus to me.

 

 

Vodafone could do this today, since they are basically everywhere, but it obviously wouldn't make as much money as their current model, or they would already be doing it!


nzbob123
4 posts

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  #2089781 13-Sep-2018 10:12
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Was hoping the Apple Watch Lte for NZ would be announced this morning.... but no.

 

Anyone have an update on whether vodafone or spark will be offering it anytime soon??


antoniosk
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  #2096622 26-Sep-2018 10:24
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From the UK yesterday...

 

Vodafone/EE eSim teething

 

Now there are 2 carriers in the UK supporting it, so the others will follow quick smart.

 

Voda group is usually ok at putting their solutions out into other opco's around the world, and I expect this will arrive in NZ when it does.... meaning Spark and 2D will jump pretty quick as well so they aren't left out.

 

Reminds me of Telecom's older solution of provisioning devices rather than SIM's... what goes around comes around...





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NikT
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  #2097696 27-Sep-2018 19:18
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antoniosk:

 

Reminds me of Telecom's older solution of provisioning devices rather than SIM's... what goes around comes around...

 

 

Yep, CDMA returns eh?

 

I am not a fan of eSIM for numerous reasons. As Steve has mentioned, the ability to easily physically switch SIMs between devices is a freedom many will not realise they had until it's gone.

 

Concerns include:

 

  •  Plans could easily be restricted per device, e.g. can't use that $2799 512GB XS Max on Prepay
  •  Sourcing of devices could easily be locked down, e.g. not accepting open market handsets or devices from another market
  •  Taking the ability to switch device from a physical mechanic to a digital one requires multiple backend services be available 24/7, which they are not guaranteed to be - SIM ejection tools have 100% uptime
  •  I expect we will see self-service portals for device registration, which the telcos will need to build, and these will inevitably be not good
  •  Active network connectivity is required for a digital solution, it is not to physically switch SIM cards

Folks who have only ever purchased local stock of iPhone - and only iPhone - will likely see little change and several perceived benefits from this. Folks who change devices regularly, jump between brands, or purchase from outside NZ will in all likelihood see a reduction in freedoms. We are already seeing Apple head this way as the China, Hong Kong, and US versions of iPhone XS and XS Max are not fully compatible with NZ networks - in stark contrast to previous models. NZ benefits from global sourcing and economies of scale due to its small size, we actually have more choice in phones here than in many other countries. eSIM hands control away from users, and personally I am glad China has banned it.

 

That said, if it finally brings (back) the ability to share a single number across multiple devices I'll consider that a silver lining!





Product Manager @ PB Tech

https://pbtech.co.nz/smartphones


hio77
'That VDSL Cat'
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  #2097698 27-Sep-2018 19:22
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one thing to be aware of, particularly with the Pixel and Apple devices, is until the supplier themselves support it in the region, network providing it is pushing your luck..

 

 

 

@nikT have faith, it's not alllll bad.

 

you do have some valid points though from my view :)





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

 


happyfunball
282 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2097833 27-Sep-2018 23:14
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None of those drawbacks are really limited to eSims. The carrier can restrict physical sim devices now too but it’s rarely done. The network sees the imei number of the device now, can see the phone model etc. That’s not a new thing.

Portals and online services are a good thing, no more talking to someone in the Phillipines to get your phone on the network.

ESims are working well in the US already. This is not a new technology. I say bring it on.

mattwnz
16850 posts

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  #2097836 27-Sep-2018 23:26
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It is such a pity that you can't use the new one with the mobile networks in NZ, especially considering the price they now are. I am still sporting the series two, which is still reasonable good on watch os5. The only thing that seems to be missing is the bigger screen, which looks to be a great upgrade, but not at that sort of price. A pity they don't sell cheaper versions, as the older series ones now look so dated with the square screen, that I can't see too many people buying them at the price they are still selling them for. GUess there will be a good market for that 100-200 fitness watch that apple won't be filling. Looks like they have gone totally upmarket on the watches and phones, as there aren't even any iphones, except for very old generation models, for under $829 for the iphone 7 (which itself is into it's third year)


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