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799 posts

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  #150208 22-Jul-2008 11:52
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freakalad: "Instant mail retrieval", "dynamic mail" or even "instant mail"

You cannot use the term "push" when you're not acually delivering anything.


The Exchange Server is indeed 'pushing' the new emails/contacts/calender to 'your' mobile device, and
The Exchange Server is indeed 'pulling' the new emails/contacts/calender from 'your' mobile

So, whats the confusion now?




Regards,
Chaks

Desktop : Intel Quad Core Q9400 2.66GHz - 8GB RAM - 500 GB + 500 GB HDD - NVidia GeForce 9800GT - LG246WH Flatron Display - Windows Server 2008 R2 Enterprise with Hyper-V
Virtual Machine : Powered by Hyper-V and VMWare Workstation
Laptop: HP dv7-3004TX Entertainment Notebook PC | HP Touchsmart tx2 1119au - Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Mac: iMac 21.5" Snow Leopard
Mobile : iPhone 3GS



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  #150213 22-Jul-2008 12:05

I'm under the impression mail servers host data & makes it available via a protocol on a port; your mail client connects & retrieves data from it's host. A server cannot "push" to a client, as it's IP may change/be transient, unless it broadcasts the data to it's entire neworks (which seems absolutly silly; purly from a security standpoint)

Where am I mistaken?




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BDFL - Memuneh
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  #150218 22-Jul-2008 12:20
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No you are not mistaken.

Chaks, read about Direct Push. It is a persistent HTTPS connection open by the client. When a certain time passes the client will close and open the connection again. If a new message arrives on the server, it will use this open connection to send a response to the client, which contains information about which folders have changed.

Knowing which folders have changed allows the client to start ActiveSync in the backgound requesting only those folders. This ensures there won't be synchronisation of unnecessary folders, reducing data transfer requirements.

The server will keep the connection alive for a long time, which prevents high use of your data allowance - freakland the "heartbeat" traffic is really small and shouldn't be of much concern - about 10 MB a month for the heartbeat.

Also the connections are all compressed with GZIP.






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Master Geek


  #150220 22-Jul-2008 12:33

Thanks for the clarification, freitasm

Seens what you're alluding to is sync with smarts, which is a point I would happily concede point to.

What concerns me is that my understanding of how "some" service providers round up their packets to the next 10k, to simplify their billing (again: correct me if I'm wrong, but please provide sources/references for me to verify).
So the hearbeat packet could be tiny, but will be blown up by the telco to line their pocket, just that little bit more.
Service providers may get around this by offerring/charging for their BlackBerry/MobileMe service to hide this activity, which is also of a huge concern to me, as this is not offering a very competitive marketplace for other people to offer services (how do you compete if your carrier if fiddling their numbers?)

A major plus point of IDLE over Active/Exchange is that I can do my sync over other, cheaper networks, like my home or work WiFi, or a public horspot, and even host my own server. This is currently a project I'm working on, hence my interest (and anger)




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  #150224 22-Jul-2008 12:37
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That 9 - 12 MB figure in the linked article refers to a real life experiment on a Pocket PC that had no other use but Direct Push and of course it includes the "round up" by the provider.

9 - 12 MB per month to keep your PC "active" is not much. Of course it does not include the actual emails. But it's smart enough to only synch what is needed.

Anyway, Apple decided to not implement folder synchronisation, so if you are using an iPhone you only see your Inbox. Wait for another version...






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Master Geek


  #150238 22-Jul-2008 12:55

Thanks for that info.
It's a really insightful article & both addresses & confirms much of my concerns.

It raises one serious question: are these service providers implicating themselves in price-fixing, as the status-quo does not make it very appealing for other players to enter the market & try to compete with that?

Is is a level playing field?

I think these are some of the very same questions that brought about the unbundling of the local loop...




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  #150239 22-Jul-2008 12:57
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What service providers? Mobile operators? In which case why would this be related to Push e-mail?




 
 
 
 


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Master Geek


  #150242 22-Jul-2008 13:04
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a public horspot


These sounds pretty sweet! :P



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Master Geek


  #150247 22-Jul-2008 13:12

Pretty-much the mobile operators, as they are the data carriers.
Can they truly offer this service to their customers, to carry the mail/messaging data at stated rates, and turn around & sell data allowances to resellers at a rate that they would be able to compete with?
I understand that these buy are in it for the bucks, but they cannot price it in such a manner that they push out any competitors that would otherwise be able to offer a better service at a better price.

As an example, gmail offers IMAP IDLE (well, maybe not straight "out-of-the-box", but let's just say so for the sake of argument). If I decide to use gmail as my IMAP host, as opposed to .Mac (as is my right), will I be punished for using essentially the same service, but from a competing host?




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  #150258 22-Jul-2008 13:29
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Your question makes no sense. The mobile operators transport bits. They don't know what service you are using and don't charge differently.

If you are using an Exchange Server, or GMAIL, or Windows Live, they don't care. It's bits. Or are you worried if they start providing a hosted e-mail service they could charge differently? Well, it's their option, but that's not how it works.

I think you are looking for things that don't exist.






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Master Geek


  #150278 22-Jul-2008 14:11

Not nessiararily.

Your sync data cound move through a dedicated gateway, and said data be deducted/not charged against your bandwith allowance.

Excuse me if I seem apprehensive, but I trust these guys as far as I can throw them




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  #150292 22-Jul-2008 14:29
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But this is only if the providers choose to offer a hosted exchange service which you may or may not take up. It's their option if they offer a service and include data in the offering.

It's your option to get someone else's service then - if it's a better value. I don't understand your worries...






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Master Geek


  #150304 22-Jul-2008 14:44

Then how should I interpret Vodafone's "insistence" that you have to sign up with their "special" data plan in order to purchase an iPhone?
How would I be able to provide a BlackBerry/Sync service to mobile customers it the telecoms offer similar services @ rates lower that I'd be able to get the data wholesale.
It's one thing offering the Sync SERVICE cheaper that I would be able to offer a similar service (apples & apples), but a different thing entirely if they are able to offer the DATA + SERVICE for the same price (or cheaper) than I'd be able to offer the service.

It about creating a healthy competitive environment; not stifling innovation




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  #150306 22-Jul-2008 14:47
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Vodafone does't offer these services. They only offer the data transfer.

The fact you must be using an iPhone APN when you purchase an iPhone on a term cotract is because Apple wants its part on the data revenue. The rumour is that this is not a Vodafone thing.







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Master Geek


  #150343 22-Jul-2008 15:42

I'm sure it's not going to hurt VF's bottom-line.

And what if I want to switch carriers?

There's too much smoke & mirrors to my liking




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