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chrisms
1 post

Wannabe Geek


  #213114 7-May-2009 11:19
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I'm not 100% about this... It's arguably a plus for their customers, but on the face of it seems to be breach of neutrality.

I've emailed Orcon regarding the criteria for acceptance into the O-Zone but have yet to receive a reply. I assume it's something to do with peering and, more generally, data costs between the host and Orcon.

Not really cool if different sites can't compete on a level platform...

Ilmarin
94 posts

Master Geek


  #213160 7-May-2009 13:19
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I can understand dealing with sites/hosts on a case by case basis, but it is a somewhat unbalanced approach to promoting local content... and that's the key issue here. Off-shore data will be significantly more expensive to move than local data for the foreseeable future, so if we can increase the percentage of data that consumers move that is locally sourced (but not necessarily locally created), then surely it's a win for everyone... perhaps even for international bandwidth providers, because if increased bandwidth demand can be soaked up by local supply, then it means fewer expensive upgrades to their undersea cables and other equipment, and a longer lifespan.



Orcon's international links are far too congested. If they buy more bandwidth, profits go down, and customer satisfaction maybe increases slightly (but ISPs like Telecom and Telstra will still be seen as preferable for the bandwidth hungry). If they charge customers more for their traffic (as they are doing), profits and demand wage a tug of war that results in either increased profit or decreased demand, but decreased customer satisfaction either way.



Orcon has to consider how they can localise popular content through caching and mirroring. If a significant chunk of it can be cached locally (using P2P caching, HTTP caching, etc.), then performance goes up across the board, and because the rate of increase in international bandwidth demand goes down, it means less additional expenditure from bandwidth provisioning in the future (something which ISPs generally suck at predicting). Sure it costs money up front for caching equipment, but it's money well spent, and there are many precedents in other countries, as well as in NZ (Vodafone does some degree of P2P caching I believe).



If Orcon can't pony up on technology and the innovative and competent use thereof, then they have nothing but competitive disadvantage against ISPs with more money and brute-force tactics. Really, diddling about with O-Zone and who's on it and who's peering with who and how much does it cost... that's just nonsense... it's like sticking your finger in a leaking hole in a dam when the whole thing's about to come crashing down. Get the content in the country, and then decide what you're going to charge for it.  Keep the non-discriminating traffic charges (so users don't get confused over what's local/zero-rated and what isn't), but decrease them because you'll be able to afford to (and traffic charges are a smoothed out fudge factor anyway).

garvani
1874 posts

Uber Geek

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  #213235 7-May-2009 16:58
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Duncan: Would it be possible to get a local online backup company into the ozone? such as http://www.datalock.co.nz/ or something similar. This would definitely be in your best interests and would differentiate you from other isps! The only factor would be customers regularly uploading copious amounts of unnecessary stuff to the backup (say 20-30gb of music etc)
If you got a good partnership going the company could perhaps customize a version of the software for orcon only, not allowing mp3's, avi's to be added to the backup etc etc

Edit: Just seen that maxnet offer free traffic to http://www.datalock.co.nz/.. good work maxnet! Now, what say you Orcon?



TechnoGuy001
722 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #213271 7-May-2009 19:04
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redskt: More sites/servers to consider:

- Windows Update (MS Download servers)

- Mac/Linux update servers



We should't have to worry if we're going over our data caps when we're downloading updates for the OS we use.





I would have to agree with you, the amount of times I have skipped updates to download them at a latter time just isn't funny.

Altho im with SS now and download the updates in offpeak time, I would still rather just leave the updates to auto download.




But yeah I definitely think that update servers for Operating systems should be free, it's just stupid that we have to pay for that.




Edit:

I would just like to add that it's GREAT to see that ISP's are finally starting to deliver bandwidth heavy services for free (even if it is just from NZ servers, it's a great start! keep it up Orcon!)

manhinli
2483 posts

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  #213276 7-May-2009 19:22
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I would be stoked if Orcon was my ISP. I use TVNZ ondemand quite a lot, and that would definitely help with usage...




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vel

vel
23 posts

Geek


  #213303 7-May-2009 21:31
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trademe.co.nz
iTunes store (would promote legal buying over piracy imo)
Update servers for OS's would be nice
gpdownloads.co.nz

paradoxsm
3000 posts

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  #213305 7-May-2009 21:44
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What about just "Free national traffic" it used to exist once upon a time!




jermsie
302 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #213307 7-May-2009 21:49
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paradoxsm: What about just "Free national traffic" it used to exist once upon a time!





It's probably difficult to tell exactly what is national or international. Some national data is routed outside of the country and then back.
FREE national traffic wouldn't be sustainable.




– J

Perrin
39 posts

Geek


  #213362 8-May-2009 02:40
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On the face of it, it seems wholly positive that an ISP is acknowledging that local traffic has very little marginal cost and passing that difference on to their customers.  But if it is done on a site-by-site basis, it does raise questions about net neutrality.

Yes, net neutrality issues are more about traffic prioritisation that would affect a user's relative experience of different sites, and this is about paying less for data that costs an ISP less to deliver.  The status quo is that we pay for all traffic, and it's hard to argue that there is significant benefit to the sites in O Zone -- so this seems pretty harmless.

But the slippery slope metaphor comes to mind.  I see that TVNZ is in the Zone, but MediaWorks sites aren't (currently).  And, oh yeah, Orcon is owned by Kordia, which is owned by the government, who also owns TVNZ.  I'm not suggesting there's a great conspiracy there, but these are the kinds of issues that will arise.

Aaroona
3065 posts

Uber Geek


  #213500 8-May-2009 16:12
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duncanblair: ...(don't hold your breath for youtube)...


Whats the point anyway. YouTube loads slower than anything on Orcon.
Adding to the list just means I'd be more tempted to wait for the stupid thing to buffer.

rickcrawley
31 posts

Geek
Inactive user


  #213520 8-May-2009 17:12
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anyone know if orcon have a fair use policy regarding this? and does it cost websites to get their website into the O zone? Would orcon be making a profit or a loss on this? YouTube will probably never be hosted or co-hosted in new zealand, but doesn't iTunes have a new zealand server and if it does you should have free iTunes download usage.

jermsie
302 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #213523 8-May-2009 17:44
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rickcrawley: anyone know if orcon have a fair use policy regarding this? and does it cost websites to get their website into the O zone? Would orcon be making a profit or a loss on this? YouTube will probably never be hosted or co-hosted in new zealand, but doesn't iTunes have a new zealand server and if it does you should have free iTunes download usage.


Apple uses Akamai to distribute some of their content ie: itunes store downloads. Podcasts etc are not pushed through Akamai however. Xnet offer free Akamai downloading as they too have a direct connection to the mirrors but I think it's difficult to say that iTunes downloads would be uncounted full stop.
It's entirely possible though.
I think it's safe to say that you can rule out YouTube ever being free/uncounted data.





– J

raytaylor
3678 posts

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  #213874 10-May-2009 15:13
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Free national traffic - as a add on package. Eg. $20 per month for unlimited nationally peered traffic.
Most of us here are quite happy doing a tracert to find out if something is locally peered, where as the average user is quite happy knowing that a basic list or trademe, tvnzondemmand, and tivo is free.




Ray Taylor

There is no place like localhost




boby55
1539 posts

Uber Geek

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  #213885 10-May-2009 16:21
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all servers in the orcon datacenter :)

Like Xnet Do / Did?

NzKaizer
130 posts

Master Geek


  #214244 11-May-2009 22:37
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wow lol, is that just one server to another in your office ?

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