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457 posts

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  # 653533 10-Jul-2012 14:29
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While some ISP's might not charge for local calls they are absorbing the cost of these calls, while other ISP's are not so kinda and charge for these calls..... (I'm on the ISP side, NZ ISP's are business not your charity and they are make a profit)

With Telecom an ISP will have 3 types of links....

NCA (Non-Coded Access) = Calls inbound from Telecom all calls starting with 0[2,3,4,6,7,9) and 00X for international calling if NCA as been setup to forward International as well as National.

SPOLI (Specific point of local Interconnect) = Calls can flow in both directions all sorts of weird calls can go via this link TCNZ Service codes eg: 111 Inbound towards the ISP is 0800 numbers the ISP owns.

POLI (Point of Local Interconnect) = Local calls towards telecoms numbers.


If you have a Telecom wholesaled number your ISP NEVER SHOULD handle local calling ONLY National/Mobile/International calling depending on what has been selected. So when the ISP receives a local call they are assuming this is a toll call, This happens with a large number of providers.

Whole most ISP's and I would say even Orcon if your numbers has been ported to them you wont be charged for local calls even if you dial 09.... as that system is able to detriment the difference between local/non-local numbers.

My 3.14159 cents




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  # 653547 10-Jul-2012 14:51
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KiwiNZ:
mattwnz:
KiwiNZ:
simonh200:
KiwiNZ:

You made the mistake, why should it be the cost on your provider to fix your error. Should BP pay if you wrongly put diesel in your
Petrol engine?

You have a responsibility for your actions.


Actually, I knew I was using an area code, so this was not a mistake. My mistake was not going through Orcons terms and conditions line by line looking for something that may trip me up. Have you read your ISPs terms and conditions, every line? If you have Ill bet you are in the minority of telco customers.


so it is your mistake.

i don't agree to any contract with out reading the terms.


To be honest , I would say 99% of people never read the pages of terms that come with signing up to an ISP.

How many people have read the apple terms, and then re read it each time they update it, which happens a lot.


Buying an iPod or iPhone is a one off payment, yes there is an EULA but no ongoing contractual liability. Signing a contract for a Telco is signing for 12 or 24 months with contractual liabilities, if one signs without reading then caveat emptor.?


There is if you want to use it for what it was designed for, as you have to keep agreeing to apples itunes terms, or when you download the latest patch to iOS, the terms change. There was a recent article in the paper about this, and with someone who actually read apples terms, and agreed, but then they changed, and they disagreed with one of the changes regarding billing of in app purchases.

Generally speaking, I am pretty sure that terms that have a detrimental effects, have to be also clearly shown elsewhere when you signup, they can't just be hidden in a huge block of text. Otherwise companies could put anything in their terms, and make them so long and complex, eg. They could put' We are also entitled to your first born child' in the terms. As most people signup over the phone, they possibly don't even see any terms.

I am on the consumers side on this, because the consumer shouldn't be expected to know the complexities of how phone companies bill each other, and the technical limitations of the system. If your old provider doesn't charge you for putting the area code in, and you then switch, and find the new provider is now charging you for something that your old provider didn't charge you for, that is hardly the consumers fault. You wouldn't actually know until you received the bill of the problem in the first place, and this is the problem I had when switching to Clear when they first started.

 
 
 
 


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  # 653571 10-Jul-2012 15:01
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mattwnz:
KiwiNZ:
mattwnz:
KiwiNZ:
simonh200:
KiwiNZ:

You made the mistake, why should it be the cost on your provider to fix your error. Should BP pay if you wrongly put diesel in your
Petrol engine?

You have a responsibility for your actions.


Actually, I knew I was using an area code, so this was not a mistake. My mistake was not going through Orcons terms and conditions line by line looking for something that may trip me up. Have you read your ISPs terms and conditions, every line? If you have Ill bet you are in the minority of telco customers.


so it is your mistake.

i don't agree to any contract with out reading the terms.


To be honest , I would say 99% of people never read the pages of terms that come with signing up to an ISP.

How many people have read the apple terms, and then re read it each time they update it, which happens a lot.


Buying an iPod or iPhone is a one off payment, yes there is an EULA but no ongoing contractual liability. Signing a contract for a Telco is signing for 12 or 24 months with contractual liabilities, if one signs without reading then caveat emptor.?


There is if you want to use it for what it was designed for, as you have to keep agreeing to apples itunes terms, or when you download the latest patch to iOS, the terms change. There was a recent article in the paper about this, and with someone who actually read apples terms, and agreed, but then they changed, and they disagreed with one of the changes regarding billing of in app purchases.

Generally speaking, I am pretty sure that terms that have a detrimental effects, have to be also clearly shown elsewhere when you signup, they can't just be hidden in a huge block of text. Otherwise companies could put anything in their terms, and make them so long and complex, eg. They could put' We are also entitled to your first born child' in the terms. As most people signup over the phone, they possibly don't even see any terms.

I am on the consumers side on this, because the consumer shouldn't be expected to know the complexities of how phone companies bill each other, and the technical limitations of the system. If your old provider doesn't charge you for putting the area code in, and you then switch, and find the new provider is now charging you for something that your old provider didn't charge you for, that is hardly the consumers fault. You wouldn't actually know until you received the bill of the problem in the first place, and this is the problem I had when switching to Clear when they first started.


Buying and iPod is different to using iTunes, the later is an ongoing service.

As long as the terms and conditions comply with New Zealand law they can put anything in it. The choice to read it is at the buyers discretion how one cannot blame the supplier if one does not read the terms and conditions or are you saying you would like New Zealand to be a 100% Nanny state?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 653584 10-Jul-2012 15:29
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KiwiNZ:


I am not talking about this particular case, but generally speaking, I think it is the about consumer being aware of what they are signing up to, rather than things being 'hidden' away in terms and conditions, and I think that is about honesty and being upfront with fees. Terms and conditions are written by lawyers and are written in lawyer wording, which your average consumer may not fully be able to interpret. Sure they could run every contract they sign past a lawyer first, but I doubt anyone would for a residential phone contract.
NZ is already a nanny state, but some things are more nanny state than others. You used to have more consumer protection when buying a toaster, than you did investing in finance companies for example.

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  # 653601 10-Jul-2012 15:49
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mattwnz:
KiwiNZ:


I am not talking about this particular case, but generally speaking, I think it is the about consumer being aware of what they are signing up to, rather than things being 'hidden' away in terms and conditions, and I think that is about honesty and being upfront with fees. Terms and conditions are written by lawyers and are written in lawyer wording, which your average consumer may not fully be able to interpret. Sure they could run every contract they sign past a lawyer first, but I doubt anyone would for a residential phone contract.
NZ is already a nanny state, but some things are more nanny state than others. You used to have more consumer protection when buying a toaster, than you did investing in finance companies for example.


You are right it is about being aware and that is why I say, read the terms and conditions before you sign, if you don't understand or feel a clause is unclear ask for clarification in writing, again before you sign.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 653677 10-Jul-2012 18:10
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KiwiNZ:
You made the mistake, why should it be the cost on your provider to fix your error. Should BP pay if you wrongly put diesel in your
Petrol engine?

You have a responsibility for your actions.



KiwiNZ:

so it is your mistake.

i don't agree to any contract with out reading the terms.



KiwiNZ:
Buying an iPod or iPhone is a one off payment, yes there is an EULA but no ongoing contractual liability.
Signing a contract for a Telco is signing for 12 or 24 months with contractual liabilities, if one signs without reading then caveat emptor.



KiwiNZ:

Buying and iPod is different to using iTunes, the later is an ongoing service.

As long as the terms and conditions comply with New Zealand law they can put anything in it.
The choice to read it is at the buyers discretion how one cannot blame the supplier if one does not read the terms and conditions or are you saying you would like New Zealand to be a 100% Nanny state?




KiwiNZ:
You are right it is about being aware and that is why I say, read the terms and conditions before you sign,
if you don't understand or feel a clause is unclear ask for clarification in writing, again before you sign.


Man you're so black and white.

It is OK so occasionally show some form of sympathy towards someone who has been pinged when not logically expected. Simply having your back covered by T&Cs doesn't always suffice, just ask Vodafone.





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  # 653703 10-Jul-2012 18:57
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Appreciate your support... It seems the majority of people here feel that this is certainly no consumer focused practice on orcons part. I have to make the point here that in the early days orcon were a good ISP, I guess they are run by a bunch of bureaucrats now with little concern for good customer relations. It all comes back to trust- I'd expect better, and get it now with a different ISP.

 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 653824 11-Jul-2012 06:35
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They told me when i signed up for their phone service that if i dial 09 for an AKL number i would be charged national.

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  # 653988 11-Jul-2012 13:35
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Ramjet007: They told me when i signed up for their phone service that if i dial 09 for an AKL number i would be charged national.


What if you have a caller display, so if you redail it will automatically add the area code in.

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Ultimate Geek
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  # 653995 11-Jul-2012 13:49
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simonh200: Appreciate your support... It seems the majority of people here feel that this is certainly no consumer focused practice on orcons part. I have to make the point here that in the early days orcon were a good ISP, I guess they are run by a bunch of bureaucrats now with little concern for good customer relations. It all comes back to trust- I'd expect better, and get it now with a different ISP.


Yes this when Orcon was small I was with them too a long time ago, now they got larger and yes the focus has to go away from trying to satisfy everyone to just satisfying most people. Thats what you get when a ISP gets big seen it happen more then once.




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  # 654084 11-Jul-2012 16:47
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mattwnz:
Ramjet007: They told me when i signed up for their phone service that if i dial 09 for an AKL number i would be charged national.


What if you have a caller display, so if you redail it will automatically add the area code in.


Still pay the cost unless you have the nationwide calling package..




Regards,

Old3eyes


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 654276 12-Jul-2012 06:09
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mattwnz:
Ramjet007: They told me when i signed up for their phone service that if i dial 09 for an AKL number i would be charged national.


What if you have a caller display, so if you redail it will automatically add the area code in.


I guess so. dont make that many land line calls so it didnt worry me.

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Ultimate Geek
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  # 654873 13-Jul-2012 07:58
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Wow, I can't believe people put up with this Bull...Sh**** from their phone provider!
There are so many choices now for your phone services, why would you put up with this!
I'm with the OP vote with your feet and go to another provider that does not charge for local calls no matter how you dial the number.




Now on 2talk Network and it's better.



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  # 654879 13-Jul-2012 08:36
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bameron: Hi team,

As mentioned above it is in our Terms and Conditions that if you dial the area code in front of a local number the toll switches may interpret that as a national call. The reason for this is not because it is a policy we've put in place just because we can, but because this is actually how the technology works.

My understanding is that this typically only happens when you are on a resold Telecom line and that other providers who sell Telecom Wholesale services have exactly the same issue from time-to-time, so this is not just Orcon-related.

Cheers,

Cam


+1

I've seen this in the past with other telephone service providers. It's not just Orcon....




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