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1217 posts

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  # 996598 28-Feb-2014 19:15
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ADKM: Woody the issue you describe is exactly what I get. Didn't realise it happens on ADSL as well.

Is there any weight to the earlier suggestion on this thread about Codecs? 

I beleive Orcon know about the problem as they said to me "not all our VDSL customer have this issue".
I bet one of them is Kim Dot Com !

It can't be a handset issue either as it happens on all phones (here) as well as mostly at certain times.

Why can't Orcon just say it will/won't/can't be fixed ?


Because as engineers our first aim is to understand what "it" is and whether your "it" is the same as woody's "it" and anyone else's "it". Most symptoms can have multiple causes, if we just assume everyone with a similar-sounding issue has the same root cause without properly investigating then we won't fix anything.

If Codecs were the issue we would have HUGE problems throughout the network. We don't.

If it was as simple as VDSL-related it would stand out like a sore thumb to us and we would jump on it PDQ as we want all our customers to have a great experience. But it isn't.

At any one time, due to the size of our customer base, we will have  a group of customers with similar-sounding symptoms, caused by, for instance, a similar line quality degradation on their individual lines, we need to diagnose and fix each of those individually. That doesn't make it a single pervasive issue, nor are we being slack or misleading by not stating there is a big issue.

I'm not for a minute trying to suggest that you and woody BOTH have handset issues but until we rule it out it <could> be, no more than that. Woody is testing which is great. If you have it on multiple handsets then that rules out a single handset (but if all driven through a single base station - if cordless - or could be the port on the modem etc). Diagnosis is a process....




Regards FireEngine


165 posts

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  # 996602 28-Feb-2014 19:19
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FireEngine:
ADKM: Woody the issue you describe is exactly what I get. Didn't realise it happens on ADSL as well.

Is there any weight to the earlier suggestion on this thread about Codecs? 

I beleive Orcon know about the problem as they said to me "not all our VDSL customer have this issue".
I bet one of them is Kim Dot Com !

It can't be a handset issue either as it happens on all phones (here) as well as mostly at certain times.

Why can't Orcon just say it will/won't/can't be fixed ?


Because as engineers our first aim is to understand what "it" is and whether your "it" is the same as woody's "it" and anyone else's "it". Most symptoms can have multiple causes, if we just assume everyone with a similar-sounding issue has the same root cause without properly investigating then we won't fix anything.

If Codecs were the issue we would have HUGE problems throughout the network. We don't.

If it was as simple as VDSL-related it would stand out like a sore thumb to us and we would jump on it PDQ as we want all our customers to have a great experience. But it isn't.

At any one time, due to the size of our customer base, we will have  a group of customers with similar-sounding symptoms, caused by, for instance, a similar line quality degradation on their individual lines, we need to diagnose and fix each of those individually. That doesn't make it a single pervasive issue, nor are we being slack or misleading by not stating there is a big issue.

I'm not for a minute trying to suggest that you and woody BOTH have handset issues but until we rule it out it <could> be, no more than that. Woody is testing which is great. If you have it on multiple handsets then that rules out a single handset (but if all driven through a single base station - if cordless - or could be the port on the modem etc). Diagnosis is a process....


It's just a shame nobody called me today......

 
 
 
 


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  # 996604 28-Feb-2014 19:24
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woody99: It's just a shame nobody called me today......


I asked you to PM me your account details but I don't have a PM received???

Was anyone else already supposed to be calling you today?




Regards FireEngine


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Master Geek


  # 996614 28-Feb-2014 19:34
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FireEngine:
woody99: It's just a shame nobody called me today......


I asked you to PM me your account details but I don't have a PM received???

Was anyone else already supposed to be calling you today?


What I meant was "I have no friends today" so unable to see if using a corded phone has improved anything.

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  # 996633 28-Feb-2014 20:01
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woody99: What I meant was "I have no friends today" so unable to see if using a corded phone has improved anything.


LOL - I thought we had messed up somewhere and you were expecting Orcon/me to call....its been a busy week!




Regards FireEngine




740 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 996729 28-Feb-2014 22:38
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FireEngine: If Codecs were the issue we would have HUGE problems throughout the network.


This was something suggested here in this thread. If you can discount it, that's good. I didn't even know they were a factor.

I'm not for a minute trying to suggest that you and woody BOTH have handset issues but until we rule it out it <could> be, no more than that. Woody is testing which is great. If you have it on multiple handsets then that rules out a single handset (but if all driven through a single base station - if cordless - or could be the port on the modem etc). Diagnosis is a process....


Woodys setup is different I think. All the phones here now feed from the port on the Netcom router Orcon supplied.  The problem is common to all phones but  only at certain times.  The phone are the same ones that previously connected with BS6312 431A plug and their handsets were OK.   I did have a go at recording a sample but couldn't get a decent audio level.  Look, have Orcon heard this and recognise it as a problem?

Is the something that can be fixed ? 

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  # 996775 28-Feb-2014 23:44
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ADKM: Look, have Orcon heard this and recognise it as a problem?

Is the something that can be fixed ? 


Audio quality is the number 1occurring issue in all phone networks worldwide, PSTN or SIP

Yes it is therefore a problem BUT is has many possible causes:

Handsets/CPE (at either end)
PSTN to SIP converter (in either or both directions)
Data circuit issues (in SIP networks)

Now because of the maths of the NZ voice market, most calls on the Orcon network originate or terminate OFF the Orcon network, usually via a PSTN provider so there are many opportunities to introduce audio issues in the call path. 

So you and woody have issues, they may <sound> the same symptom, they may <be> the same symptom, they could (and likely do), have different causes.

But we are happy to investigate any issue we can identify a pattern from. I say that because we can't investigate a single poor audio on a single Genius to mobile call for instance, but if there is a pattern over several calls, happy to.




Regards FireEngine


 
 
 
 




740 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 996798 1-Mar-2014 02:01
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While not expecting hifi over the phone, VOIP is a shocking replacement for the previous analogue(?) system. Even dial tone sounds like it's coming over short wave. One can put up with that, but not dropouts where you can't understand a word said. Every time the phone rings, you wonder 'will I be able to hear or not'.

 

These are not Genius to mobile calls, they're local landline calls within the same town/area. Occurring almost solely between 8-10pm but can be intermittent with not every call affected. The incoming audio is as described, but the other end always reports no problem hearing you.

 

Are you going to refund me the mobile charges I incur because I can't use the landline? I doubt it very much... but if I go to another provider you want a early termination fee. Are you going to fix the problem? No assurances yet and although you say you’re happy to investigate nothing has improved in 3 weeks and now it may be 'outside the Orcon Network and audio quality is an issue on all phone networks worldwide'. I say in over 50 years of using phones I've never had a problem until this VOIP system which I didn't even know I was getting. You took the perfectly good phone off me and now want an extra $45 a month to give it back. This is not an experience one would recommend to anyone.

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  # 996799 1-Mar-2014 03:52
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Were you not told you were switching to the genius voip system during the sign up process when you selected the plan?

The dial tone is generated by the modem/router, not the orcon office. So the sound at that point isnt coming over short wave or traversing the internet. The dial tones are usually different for two reasons.
1) The modem has a pre-set dial tone to imitate the standard American bell system
2) The tone is left off-key so that the dialer knows they have hit a voip box or have an outside line if its feeding a pbx. Eg. at one of our customers offices they can press 1 for a line out through the pbx for local calls, or a certain code for a specific line out fed by the voip box which gives them cheaper national tolls. They know they have dialed the right line out code by the pitch of the second dial tone they hear.
The important thing to understand here about the tone is that it is not traversing the internet so orcon have no control over the sound quality other than maybe being able to remotely set the frequency or pitch.


In New Zealand because NEAX equipment is used everywhere, we are all used to the same tone frequency and pitch. In places like the UK for example, they have different sounding dial tones depending upon which exchange you were connected to - sometimes it was a buzzing sound and less of a tone. With voip becoming more prevaliant and different manufacturers setting different default tones (some ATA's can be reprogrammed to imitate a NZ standard tone) this will become more and more common. You will simply get used to the fact that a dial tone is going to be a solid tone and not one of a certain sound frequency or pitch.

Now I suspect orcon will be automatically provisioning your ATA built into your modem so these settings you probably cannot touch.  
It would seem to me that there is packet loss somewhere along the line.

Have you done the speed test or googled how to get your line stats yet?




Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




18 posts

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# 996807 1-Mar-2014 06:00
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Had same problems, how interesting that it is not just me being a dumbass know nothing dickbrain.

Get them to change it back to copper.

1217 posts

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  # 996809 1-Mar-2014 07:03
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ADKM: While not expecting hifi over the phone, VOIP is a shocking replacement for the previous analogue(?) system. Even dial tone sounds like it's coming over short wave. One can put up with that, but not dropouts where you can't understand a word said. Every time the phone rings, you wonder 'will I be able to hear or not'.
These are not Genius to mobile calls, they're local landline calls within the same town/area. Occurring almost solely between 8-10pm but can be intermittent with not every call affected. The incoming audio is as described, but the other end always reports no problem hearing you.
Are you going to refund me the mobile charges I incur because I can't use the landline? I doubt it very much... but if I go to another provider you want a early termination fee. Are you going to fix the problem? No assurances yet and although you say you’re happy to investigate nothing has improved in 3 weeks and now it may be 'outside the Orcon Network and audio quality is an issue on all phone networks worldwide'. I say in over 50 years of using phones I've never had a problem until this VOIP system which I didn't even know I was getting. You took the perfectly good phone off me and now want an extra $45 a month to give it back. This is not an experience one would recommend to anyone.


You first posted here just a few days ago, not 3weeks, I have offered to help investigate but I can do no more without being able to identify your account. VOIP as a technology is fine.

Without looking at your connection and calls I can't fix this or even start to try - if you are just looking for an Orcon rep to condemn Genius/VOIP as a whole so that you can escape your contract then that is not going to happen with me.

Re your mobile calls etc, search my posts, you will find I normally get resolutions where everyone is happy, but again I can do nothing until you tell me who you are.

Oh and even calls within the same area can travel complicated routes between (and even within) telco's, again the detail of you calls will help tell us what may be wrong.




Regards FireEngine


1217 posts

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  # 996811 1-Mar-2014 07:24
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ADKM: While not expecting hifi over the phone, VOIP is a shocking replacement for the previous analogue(?) system. Even dial tone sounds like it's coming over short wave. One can put up with that, but not dropouts where you can't understand a word said. Every time the phone rings, you wonder 'will I be able to hear or not'.
These are not Genius to mobile calls, they're local landline calls within the same town/area. Occurring almost solely between 8-10pm but can be intermittent with not every call affected. The incoming audio is as described, but the other end always reports no problem hearing you.
Are you going to refund me the mobile charges I incur because I can't use the landline? I doubt it very much... but if I go to another provider you want a early termination fee. Are you going to fix the problem? No assurances yet and although you say you’re happy to investigate nothing has improved in 3 weeks and now it may be 'outside the Orcon Network and audio quality is an issue on all phone networks worldwide'. I say in over 50 years of using phones I've never had a problem until this VOIP system which I didn't even know I was getting. You took the perfectly good phone off me and now want an extra $45 a month to give it back. This is not an experience one would recommend to anyone.


Just found your pm, I'll step in and understand what has gone on with the Customer Care team....




Regards FireEngine


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  # 996825 1-Mar-2014 08:18
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FireEngine: Just found your pm, I'll step in and understand what has gone on with the Customer Care team....


Tier 2 will be looking at this and putting an analyzer on the line when they come online this morning. I can't see any other technical investigation has been done so far, I'll follow up with the Customer Care team you have been in discussion with on Monday (they don't work weekends).




Regards FireEngine


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  # 996904 1-Mar-2014 10:35
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broken handset..... will eat my hat if that is the case.



740 posts

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  # 997004 1-Mar-2014 13:33
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Ray,  I never signed up for anything, it was offered as a solution after I changed plans in December last. This involved moving from Chorus or Telecom equipment to Orcons and the rep advised it would be better. It wasn't - both up/down ADSL speeds were down on what they'd been. VDSL restored them plus more. Now 18MB in and 6 out. Not spectacular but within spec and I'd be more than happy with that if the phone was OK.  There was no mention of VOIP and I had no idea what Genius was.  I thought it was something to do with a mobile.

Thanks for that bit of tech info... we are used to one dial tine and I didn't realise it's now generated by the router.

I could tell from the first ever VOIP call that something was different.  The line was no longer dead quiet but has a slight hiss. There can lots of echo. Some calls are well down on audio and/or slightly muffled.  I'm convinced the technoloy just isn't as good as the old system. But as I said that's something you can put up with, but not the dropouts/skips.

I've not seen/got any line stats; speed tests consistently show 18/6.

Mr Fire Engine Orcon - I am NOT looking for 'an Orcon rep to condemn Genius/VOIP as a whole so that you can escape your contract'. I would actually prefer to stay EVEN with the VOIP 'downgrade' if the phone was OK. Other people must be having this problem too, not just me. I appreciate now your offer to analyse line etc. I have wondered if being as far from the exchange as I am is anything to do with it.  And it seems more than coincidental the problem occurs at the time of highest internet traffic. You can have a month - if it comes right I stay. If not you waive any termination fee and I can go to Telecom (who assure me they have normal phones). Is that OK with you ?

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