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244 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 142753 3-Jul-2008 22:21
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Duncan.

It was very interesting to finally have some insights into tne structure of Orcon's network setup.

I can appreciate that Orocon, wanting to optimise profits, prefers user to be signed up to the LLU plans.
Means you have to give up a smaller share of our monthly fee to Telecom.
However. Since Telecom's exchange upgrades almost all of your customers will now be on ADSL2+ enabled connections.
The last exchange to be upgraded (the Auckland CBD exchange) is now running on ADSL2+
My modem, connected to that exchange is now registering downloads of 18000 and uploads of 1200 kbps.
And that's only until ADSL2+ is enabled on my cabinet, which is a whole 10 meters away from my place.

So limiting of non-LLU connection at your end would be rather unfair. Especially given your LLU network doesn't seem to be 100% reliable (yet).

Also.
I think we all have to remind ourselves that this is all about BROADBAND.
There is no point in advertising your services as the fastest, newest and best if the only fast part of anyone's connection are the first two hops to your Layer7 switch.
The broadband bit should extend beyond that.
Ever since March this year I am unable to stream anything that is remotely of high resolution.
I used to be able to watch Apple's trailers and events in HiDef. It is no more. Your Layer7 sends my quicktime into panic mode.
It would be nice if subscribing to you I had some assurance my download speed from L.A. (as an example) would never go below 500KBps (providing originating party capacity).
At present your speeds mean and guaranty absolutely nothing!

I also would like to stand in defence of some people here that are asking for refunds.
I understand that this may not be the most appropriate outlet for that.
But I want to ask you this.
What would Orcon do if I "over-downloaded" like mad during one month and, let's say used 300GB.
At the end of that month I'd say: "Gee, the weather wasn't very good and I didn't have anything else to do. But I never realized I'd use so much data. Please excuse me and only charge me the standard tariff".

This is what you have done with your "We underestimated the bandwidth capacity" thing.
And that is laugh out loud.

Thanks.

D

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 142760 3-Jul-2008 22:42
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dauckland: ...I want to ask you this.
What would Orcon do if I "over-downloaded" like mad during one month and, let's say used 300GB.
At the end of that month I'd say: "Gee, the weather wasn't very good and I didn't have anything else to do. But I never realized I'd use so much data. Please excuse me and only charge me the standard tariff".

This is what you have done with your "We underestimated the bandwidth capacity" thing.

That is a very interesting slant on this issue; completely turning the tables on what Orcon have been offering their customers as an excuse for the predicament they find themselves in.

I agree 100% with your logic.  When the boot is on the other foot, the ridiculous nature of this whole situation is exposed.

Due to Xnet's Peak Time International Speed issues, I was looking for a new ISP about a month ago.  Because Orcon's LLU rollout has recently reached our exchange, I was very interested to give them a try.  However, after reading this thread, I realised that I would simply be trading one set of problems (Xnet's) for another (Orcon).

It's a real pity that Orcon have dropped the ball with their network performance after spending so many millions of Kordia's money on their LLU network.  All of which will be a wasted investment unless this situation is resolved properly, once and for all.

Orcon customers live in hope waiting for that to happen.  In the meantime, many are voting with their feet, and other prospective customers such as myself have gone elsewhere.  This debacle has been extremely bad PR for Orcon, which ever way you look at it.  When I read this little snippet in the Herald today:

Connect: What's Orcon's business strategy?

Bartlett: To get our customers on to our own network so we can deliver a brilliant service profitably. Those two - a brilliant service and a profitable service - when you're doing it on someone else's network are incredibly tricky. Ultimately it's about getting customers on to our own networks because when they're there we can control the quality of service end-to-end. Strategically that's where the business is trying to position itself and LLU is undeniably a huge part of that.

I couldn't help thinking of this thread, and the irony of what Scott Bartlett was saying Foot in mouth

Delivering a brillant service profitably is obviously his mantra.  And yet it's obvious that the consideration of profit ranks way ahead of the brilliant service.

Here is a link to the full article for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501833&objectid=10519632

 
 
 
 


398 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 142876 4-Jul-2008 10:25
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Well I had a lovely coversation with Vodafone.

I feel I asked all the right questions - ie "Do you have International Bandwidth Issues in regards to people who game"  and she put me on hold while she went and asked her manager.

And she came back and said they have no interantional bandwidth issues and that Vodafone has a 30 day money back Gurantee if we are not happy.  They are also aware of Orcon's situation.

And to switch over it takes 10 working days - quicker if your line already is Broadband capable.

Also we will be able to sync ADSL2 speeds from July when Telecom upgrades my exchange until we get switched over to the red network in October.

I also got told I was the first woman gamer of WOW that she spoke to.  And I said, "yes, we are hard to find (as well as adult gamers in general)" lol

And I will pay less to Vodafone than to Orcon - $90 a month for 20gb max/max and can double that for $30 a month which is still cheaper than Orcon.

I might just go with Vodafone after this weekend -regardless if they fix the broadband issues -

I want good customer service, good gurantee's, excellant product and a company that puts customers first - without stating things about profitability.  We know they want to be profitable as they have no ethical issues taking our money when we are getting sub-standard service.




"In the real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems" - The Book of Counted Sorrows





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  Reply # 142883 4-Jul-2008 10:44
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kiwipearls: I want good customer service, good gurantee's, excellant product and a company that puts customers first - without stating things about profitability.  We know they want to be profitable as they have no ethical issues taking our money when we are getting sub-standard service.

I would tell you that I recently (well, within the last 3 months) changed from Vodafone to Orcon.  I won't go into the reasons, but do you really think they will be any better in the long run?  It's your prerogative to change, and good on you for doing so, but don't think Vodafone are any better.  They might be doing OK at the moment, but so was Orcon not that long ago...
P.S. Also, should say the main reason I signed up for Orcon was no contract.  If it's no good (and it hasn't gotten to that stage yet for me) I can always change and I'm no worse off.  I'd be wary of signing up to any kind of contract, who knows what performance they'll have in a couple of months time when your 30 day guarantee is long expired...

150 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 142892 4-Jul-2008 11:01
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Pearls, I think you should read further about Vodafone, I thought I read a lot of unhappy people on their network.  But I can't find the thread on Geekzone now.  Could be wrong, maybe they're sorted.

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  Reply # 142896 4-Jul-2008 11:08
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Kiwi,

I just did this excercise, and with the calling specials, the included voicemail, callerID, and Callwaiting, and a free static ip with Orcon, it worked out way cheaper to go with Orcon. I can see improvements in Orcon in the last week or so, communication lines are opening, and HOPEFULLY they will sort the bandwidth out. I have just signed up to LLU with Orcon on thier most expensive pack, and contract free, so if it doesn't improve I can simply move away. Also I am covered by the consumer guarantee's act meaning I have recourse if I am prepared to fight for it.

Vodafone SALES line has a 35 minute wait, that killed it for me. If that's how they are when they want your money, how will they be when you want something from them. All reports I've heard say vodafone made ihug support WORSE if that was possible.

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  Reply # 142897 4-Jul-2008 11:09
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Duncan, are you able to let us know if the end of the week deadline will be met for extra bandwidth? If not is it something that could be done over the weekend, or will it be next week?

248 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 142911 4-Jul-2008 11:51
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dauckland: Duncan.

It was very interesting to finally have some insights into tne structure of Orcon's network setup.

I can appreciate that Orocon, wanting to optimise profits, prefers user to be signed up to the LLU plans.
Means you have to give up a smaller share of our monthly fee to Telecom.
However. Since Telecom's exchange upgrades almost all of your customers will now be on ADSL2+ enabled connections.
The last exchange to be upgraded (the Auckland CBD exchange) is now running on ADSL2+
My modem, connected to that exchange is now registering downloads of 18000 and uploads of 1200 kbps.
And that's only until ADSL2+ is enabled on my cabinet, which is a whole 10 meters away from my place.



Thanks for the in depth feedback. I wanted to address this in particular, because on the surface this does seem to be a very valid point.

However, the reason this is not the case is that the bandwidth available to end users on Telecom Wholesale broadband products is restricted by the backhaul dimensioning on the exchange. Despite Telecom upgrading the equipment in exchanges to ADSL2+ they have not changed the dimensioning of their wholesale broadband products, which remains at 24Kbps per user averaged over 15 minutes. This means that there is ultimately no point in us throwing a heap of bandwidth at the wholesale network as it will always be faced with this limitation.

Later this year Telecom is launching wholesale products with better performance (real time traffic guarantees) - this is known as enhanced UBA (or EUBA). At that point we will have guarantees over the bandwidth that will be provided to the end user, although these are going to be more expensive.

Because we control the backhaul from exchanges on our unbundled network it means that we can dimension the network in any way we choose. This is why we are able to guarantee that the additional international bandwidth that we provide to service these ADSL2+ customers is delivered to the end user via adequate backhaul.


160 posts

Master Geek


Reply # 142940 4-Jul-2008 13:16
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Bandwidth Upgrade - today, tonight, this weekend?

248 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 142941 4-Jul-2008 13:19
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networkn: Duncan, are you able to let us know if the end of the week deadline will be met for extra bandwidth? If not is it something that could be done over the weekend, or will it be next week?


Yes still scheduled to happen tonight.

490 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 7


  Reply # 142947 4-Jul-2008 13:35

duncanblair:
dauckland: Duncan.

It was very interesting to finally have some insights into tne structure of Orcon's network setup.

I can appreciate that Orocon, wanting to optimise profits, prefers user to be signed up to the LLU plans.
Means you have to give up a smaller share of our monthly fee to Telecom.
However. Since Telecom's exchange upgrades almost all of your customers will now be on ADSL2+ enabled connections.
The last exchange to be upgraded (the Auckland CBD exchange) is now running on ADSL2+
My modem, connected to that exchange is now registering downloads of 18000 and uploads of 1200 kbps.
And that's only until ADSL2+ is enabled on my cabinet, which is a whole 10 meters away from my place.



Thanks for the in depth feedback. I wanted to address this in particular, because on the surface this does seem to be a very valid point.

However, the reason this is not the case is that the bandwidth available to end users on Telecom Wholesale broadband products is restricted by the backhaul dimensioning on the exchange. Despite Telecom upgrading the equipment in exchanges to ADSL2+ they have not changed the dimensioning of their wholesale broadband products, which remains at 24Kbps per user averaged over 15 minutes. This means that there is ultimately no point in us throwing a heap of bandwidth at the wholesale network as it will always be faced with this limitation.

Later this year Telecom is launching wholesale products with better performance (real time traffic guarantees) - this is known as enhanced UBA (or EUBA). At that point we will have guarantees over the bandwidth that will be provided to the end user, although these are going to be more expensive.

Because we control the backhaul from exchanges on our unbundled network it means that we can dimension the network in any way we choose. This is why we are able to guarantee that the additional international bandwidth that we provide to service these ADSL2+ customers is delivered to the end user via adequate backhaul.


Thanks for giving us some insight as to what is happening and what will happen, it's greatly appreciated!

+ great to hear that the extra bandwidth is coming tonight, im sure the people with speed issues will grateful.

398 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 142948 4-Jul-2008 13:37
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duncanblair:
dauckland: Duncan.

It was very interesting to finally have some insights into tne structure of Orcon's network setup.

I can appreciate that Orocon, wanting to optimise profits, prefers user to be signed up to the LLU plans.
Means you have to give up a smaller share of our monthly fee to Telecom.
However. Since Telecom's exchange upgrades almost all of your customers will now be on ADSL2+ enabled connections.
The last exchange to be upgraded (the Auckland CBD exchange) is now running on ADSL2+
My modem, connected to that exchange is now registering downloads of 18000 and uploads of 1200 kbps.
And that's only until ADSL2+ is enabled on my cabinet, which is a whole 10 meters away from my place.



Thanks for the in depth feedback. I wanted to address this in particular, because on the surface this does seem to be a very valid point.

However, the reason this is not the case is that the bandwidth available to end users on Telecom Wholesale broadband products is restricted by the backhaul dimensioning on the exchange. Despite Telecom upgrading the equipment in exchanges to ADSL2+ they have not changed the dimensioning of their wholesale broadband products, which remains at 24Kbps per user averaged over 15 minutes. This means that there is ultimately no point in us throwing a heap of bandwidth at the wholesale network as it will always be faced with this limitation.

Later this year Telecom is launching wholesale products with better performance (real time traffic guarantees) - this is known as enhanced UBA (or EUBA). At that point we will have guarantees over the bandwidth that will be provided to the end user, although these are going to be more expensive.

Because we control the backhaul from exchanges on our unbundled network it means that we can dimension the network in any way we choose. This is why we are able to guarantee that the additional international bandwidth that we provide to service these ADSL2+ customers is delivered to the end user via adequate backhaul.



Hang on, if this is the case, then why are no other ISP's affected with international bandwidth issues?




"In the real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems" - The Book of Counted Sorrows





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  Reply # 142951 4-Jul-2008 13:46
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Kiwi,

X-Net, Xtra, and Vodafone are all suffering.

248 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 142952 4-Jul-2008 13:48
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kiwipearls:
Hang on, if this is the case, then why are no other ISP's affected with international bandwidth issues?


We are running short on bandwidth (below the dimensioning for the netowrk) at the moment - hence the issues for us. This is why we are upgrading tonight. I am just pointing out why there is a difference between the amount of bandwidth provisioned per user on Orcon+ vs non-Orcon+ broadband connections.

That wasn't intended to be an explination for the issues we have right now.

398 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 142953 4-Jul-2008 13:51
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networkn: Kiwi,

X-Net, Xtra, and Vodafone are all suffering.


Then wouldn't the best thing to do, is go back to Xtra then.

What is the point for other ISP's to offer telelcom wholesale broadband and yet we don't get the same speeds as if we were on Xtra?

Sorry, just having a little bit of trouble understanding.

Also, I thought this international bandwidth issue was not just to do with the wholesale broadband but also on Orcons unbundled own network.

This whole two months has done my head in.




"In the real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems" - The Book of Counted Sorrows





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