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  Reply # 365193 9-Aug-2010 07:30
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These are good questions and is comes back to the LLU argument where everyone was so fired up about it being the end of all the problems, remember Annette Presely and Co on closeup, there were numerous consultations by Telecom with all service providers where they explained what they where doing with Cabinetisation, I am looking at the briefing documents now from June and September 2007 where they explained what they where doing to everyone, even have my hand written notes saying this will effect LLU performance.... let me stress all the service providers where there listerning to the same info we where !

The problem appeared to be that people where so focused on LLU that they didn't understand what the actual impact of shortening the loop was. This was not Telecoms fault at all, they where more than upfront with what they where doing and the reason they argued that LLU was not going to be the long term solution, LLU was only ever going to be economical if they had large coverage areas.

LLU equipment is effected by passing through cabinets this was never hidden and just a fact of what Telecom was rolling out to give better wholesale access products, absolutely nothing wrong with that and it was part of their commitments to the government to bring higher speeds to the majority of new Zealanders, the only way to do this was to shorten the copper and to be fair they where the only ones capable of doing it due to the geographical size and nature of our Telco infrastructure.

LLU was only every going to be deployed in the big exchanges with larger amount of customers i.e cherry picking but as the areas get smaller due to the cabinet rollout, LLU becomes less of a vialable option and also wholesale options from cabinets are always going to perform better as the copper is just shorter.. that's just a technicial fact !

So making statements around being illegal is pretty much way off the mark and unfounded but to be fair you won't have all the background information around this, I personally feel it's more around choices made by individual service providers and perhaps the people at these briefing not fully understanding the ramifications of LLU rollouts and the effect of cabinetisatiion, but once you have invested heavily in going down a path pretty hard to back away from it, you need to get a ROI so you need to keep customers on that product as along as possible.. Once you make your Cake you have to eat it Wink




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  Reply # 365198 9-Aug-2010 08:16
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Hi Maverick, not wanting to wander to far off topic, but with the looming Chorus shed off do you see an improved viability of other players getting into cabinets.

Cyril

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 365199 9-Aug-2010 08:22
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cyril7: Hi Maverick, not wanting to wander to far off topic, but with the looming Chorus shed off do you see an improved viability of other players getting into cabinets.

Cyril

Hey Cyril
And not wanting to go off topic , just want to add the other side of the discussion Smile,

Honestly not sure myself, with so much going on we know Telecom is really struggling under the load of all the seperation and milestone requirments and with UFB also taking up evryones time I don't know if anyone is going to hard of getting regulated access to the cabinets because right now it's not, the biggest issue for SP's will the cost of backhaul access to service these... I think the the cost of equipment + cost of baulhaul = to hard and too costly at this point..... Thats my own view though




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  Reply # 365606 9-Aug-2010 20:19
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gmail taking like a min to open....

wru international bandwidth :S

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  Reply # 365656 9-Aug-2010 21:58

i understand that by shortening the copper cable telecom is able to offer a MORE competitive product.

I also understand the cherry picking concept, and how law can not keep up with investment made by telecom, thus telecom is using this to their advantage by offering better product to consumers, all that is good news to me as a consumer!

what I DON'T understand is the signal degradation for LLU users.

Say point A is the large exchange, point B is the cabinet closer to my home, and point C is my home.

I understand that telecom by investing in more equipments are now able to shorten copper cable by moving equipments up to point B which is closer to my home, so comparatively my speed have gone from 10Mbps to 20Mbps.

What I don't understand is, by moving their cabinet up to Point B, it "degraded" my line going to A from 10Mbps to 2Mbps.

I find that bit rather strong armed. As it's not technically impossible to just bypass it, and left my line to point A alone.

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  Reply # 365677 9-Aug-2010 22:29
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I should point out that it's not just Telecom able to offer a more competitive service. Orcon could itself decide to offer services via the cabinet (via Telecom Wholesale). And they do just that for many customers.

I agree that perhaps LLU, with the benefit of hindsight, doesn't offer much benefit to end users. More time/effort could (or perhaps should) have been better spent working together with Telecom to ensure that cabinetisation actually worked for all ISPs and their end-users.

- James 

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  Reply # 365696 9-Aug-2010 23:09
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Yes my Orcon account is now connected to and roadside cabinet now and I received an increase in speed to 14.85Mbps where as before when i was still connected to the exchange the best i ever got was 3.2Mbps and that didn't last long the avg for me used to be 2.2 ~ 2.3 Mbps


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  Reply # 365699 9-Aug-2010 23:32
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alliao:

What I DON'T understand is the signal degradation for LLU users.



Basically it's cross talk in the bundle of copper running from the cabinet to your house.  The stronger signals from/injected at the cabinet cause additional loss in the weaker signals coming from the exchange.




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  Reply # 365714 10-Aug-2010 00:25

Ragnor:
alliao:

What I DON'T understand is the signal degradation for LLU users.



Basically it's cross talk in the bundle of copper running from the cabinet to your house.  The stronger signals from/injected at the cabinet cause additional loss in the weaker signals coming from the exchange.





so who owns the line? i guess as long as we are able to define property rights then we can get somewhere.

as far as i understand, right now it feels like telecom actually owns the line? so they can do whatever (by introducing stronger signal into the line and therefore drowning out other people's signal).

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  Reply # 365742 10-Aug-2010 07:53
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The stronger signals from/injected at the cabinet cause additional loss in the weaker signals coming from the exchange.


Me being pedantic but its the induction of noise on circuits with low signal strength from the distant exchange from circuits with higher signals from the cabinet that are the issue, the line loss remains unchanged.

And as Maveric states, all ISPs were briefed of this issue long before they rolled any LLU DSLAMs into exchanges, they just didnt appear to hear.

Cyril

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  Reply # 365759 10-Aug-2010 08:39
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cyril7:
The stronger signals from/injected at the cabinet cause additional loss in the weaker signals coming from the exchange.


Me being pedantic but its the induction of noise on circuits with low signal strength from the distant exchange from circuits with higher signals from the cabinet that are the issue, the line loss remains unchanged.

And as Maveric states, all ISPs were briefed of this issue long before they rolled any LLU DSLAMs into exchanges, they just didnt appear to hear.

Cyril


For me it was very annoying at the time as there was such a big song and dance about LLU vs a better wholesale product offereing, Telecom laid it out what they where doing with cabinets it was right there in front of us, this was always going to effect the coverage areas for LLU as more and more cabinets were rolled out, the LLU coverage areas would shrink and existing LLU lines had to go through "Active Cabinets" so would cause perfomance degredation, when every body finally twigged on to the fact and there was another big song and dance it annoyed me even more because the same people that were jumping up and down about how Telecom had done the dirty were the same people at the briefings !!!  

Look it may sound like I'm Pro Telcom and anti LLU I'm not, it's just that I think the other side of the story needs to be added to add clarificatiion and perspective to these discussions, I think myself that Telecom has actaully done more to improve the state of improved DSL offerings by this rollout... Pricing and some products still suck btw  :) , But I think it's better for far more New Zealanders and they have done so in a far quicker time frame than LLU will every do, LLU will only target the big exchange areas first , thats just a commercial fact in getting ROI, Companies will try and keep you on the connection as the cost of the LLU has to be recovered and it's not cheap, but the fact remains is that if you are in a area which has been cabinetisted then most likely the better performing DSL offering will be a service being offered off the cabinet not the LLU connection... It's just a techncial fact the copper run is shorter and you cant blame Telecom for That ! 

This was a choice made by each company in which path they wanted to go nothing wrong with that and I applaude the competition it's great to see different offerings and choices, but the fact remains is that no matter what you think of Telecom they are not in the wrong for the cabinet rollout.   


Sorry we are going a bit off track, probably needs to go to another discusssion




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  Reply # 365762 10-Aug-2010 08:46
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Lets put it another way.

The reason why alot of ISP's rolled out LLU,

1) Price....Wholesale ports are very expensive.
2) Not limited to 32kbits per customer at the Telecom handovers. Telecom are artificually limiting the speed of what Wholsalers can offer their consumers.

Our LLU network on the other hand is provisioned at 100kbits per sub.

HUGE Difference.


Being stuck on a cabinet may give you great sync speeds, but the handover oversubscription is crap.



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  Reply # 365765 10-Aug-2010 09:11
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Sounddude: Lets put it another way.

The reason why alot of ISP's rolled out LLU,

1) Price....Wholesale ports are very expensive.
2) Not limited to 32kbits per customer at the Telecom handovers. Telecom are artificually limiting the speed of what Wholsalers can offer their consumers.

Our LLU network on the other hand is provisioned at 100kbits per sub.

HUGE Difference.


Being stuck on a cabinet may give you great sync speeds, but the handover oversubscription is crap.




1) Price....Wholesale ports are very expensive. ... Yep agree with you on that 
2) Not limited to 32kbits per customer at the Telecom handovers. Telecom are artificually limiting the speed of what Wholsalers can offer their consumers. ... Actually 45k now but we still want less restriction if your watching my Telecom account team lets go with the Orcon value I like 100k Tongue out

Our LLU network on the other hand is provisioned at 100kbits per sub..... Nice work Cool

No matter what we all offer it still seems there is always going to be customers complaining about speeds and throughtput even with 100k and they always try to point the finger, just adding to why the speeds and expereince will change so it's a balanced view





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  Reply # 365823 10-Aug-2010 12:38
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1) Price....Wholesale ports are very expensive.


I guess they have to be, given that Telecom Wholesale has to provide service to a huge number of customers in a huge number of exchanges. When an ISP only bothers to cherry pick the most profitable exchanges, of course it's going to be cheaper per port for them. Lets see how much it would cost per port if Orcon decided to roll out LLU to all exchanges and to all cabinets.

Perhaps Telecom prices would look cheaper then given they have the economy of scale they can pass on to ISPs?

At the end of the day Orcon's approach seem to be to provide value. That's fair enough, but Telecom's approach seems to be focused on bringing broadband to as many people as possible. That's not a cheap exercise to do but at least Telecom is committed to making a difference.

To have an Orcon spokesperson complain about the prices of wholesale port seems hypocritical when they also say it would be expensive to LLU every exchange and cabinet. Surely that proves the point that Telecom is offering value to ISPs by providing them with a wholesale service, negating the need for them to LLU unprofitable exchanges!

- James

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  Reply # 365832 10-Aug-2010 12:52
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/claps

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