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312 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 774106 4-Mar-2013 08:59
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JimmyH:
bagheera: the dtt stream is not encrypted, but the is a flag in the mheg stream that say do not let HD copy with out encrypt. to get freeviewnz approve, then you got to listen to this flag, all the big name pvr are fteeviewnz approved so do this, but there are some pvr that are not freeviewnz approved that will let you copy HD off / play back over the network


Can you advise which ones. I'm really grumpy to read this thread, having recently brought a Panny XW390 - principally because I had just finished a network rebuild incorporating media players that I want to stream recordings to. If it really is the case that Panasonic has a gimped DLNA feature set, I may try and take it back for a refund.

I second the poster who observed that it's no wonder people just resort to piracy.



can not remember now - was 1 or 2 years ago when i was looking into this and we went with a mythtv with a tv card in the end (which let you copy off / stream to any pc - there is even an Android frontend now - not tested that tho), but if i remember right i was talking to this owner of this site about option http://www.freeviewshop.co.nz/


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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 775400 6-Mar-2013 07:45
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Hi from a new member. Like others posting to this thread, I’ve read it with fascination and dismay in equal proportions. I find it totally baffling that a disk that is copy-protected should only be able to be played on the machine it was recorded on. Surely the whole point of copy protection is that the disk can’t be copied? In which case why shouldn’t it be played on some other machine? It can’t be in two places at once!

Anyway, I have a question on an aspect of this that may have been covered already (in which case I apologise); but if so I can't see it. The background is that I have a Panasonic BW880 recorder, and have used it to save about forty or fifty films and other programmes for my own use on BD-RE disks. Like everyone else, it seems, I’ve found that they play fine on the Panasonic machine, but not on my computer or apparently on other Blu-ray players. The impression I’m getting from this thread is that I’m stuck with this situation, so I’m just coming to terms with it.

My question is whether my recordings can be played on other PANASONIC Blu-ray players. Does anybody know? My worry is that if they will never play on ANY player, even a Panasonic, unless it is specifically my own existing one, then if that machine dies (which undoubtedly it will one day), all my recordings will die with it.

If so, what a ludicrous situation! It would imply that all copy-protected disks recorded on this unique machine somehow "belong" to it, never to work elsewhere. In fact if this is true, they're not really "media" in the accepted sense at all, but a kind of detached adjunct to the machine itself. On the other hand, if I can buy a new Panasonic Blu-ray player in the future, knowing that these disks will work on that as well, then at least I can take some comfort that they will still be accessible. Can anybody offer any words of encouragement, or is this a lost cause?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 775433 6-Mar-2013 09:06
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aspiringeditor:
My question is whether my recordings can be played on other PANASONIC Blu-ray players. Does anybody know? My worry is that if they will never play on ANY player, even a Panasonic, unless it is specifically my own existing one, then if that machine dies (which undoubtedly it will one day), all my recordings will die with it.

 Can anybody offer any words of encouragement, or is this a lost cause?

Yes they can.
I have recorded a couple of HD programs (Freeview TV2 in HD) off the HDD in my Panasonic BW880 on to a BD RE disc prior to upgrading to a BWT70. They play quite happily in my Panasonic BDT110 Blu Ray Player as well as my BWT720. I see no reason to doubt they will play in any other Brand of Blu Ray player.

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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 775576 6-Mar-2013 11:42
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That's really good to hear. Thanks for providing such a swift response. You could probably detect the note of panic in my posting!

I suppose a follow-on question is whether this compatibility is likely to be carried forward into future models. In other words, will a Panasonic (or other) player of four or five years' time be more or less likely to play recordings made on a BW880 in 2012 than those available now? At the moment I'm almost tempted to buy another current Panasonic player of some kind, just as a fallback. But what a crazy situation. I'm accustomed to legacy problems with computer software, but this seems to be taking them to a new level!

312 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 775579 6-Mar-2013 11:52
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aspiringeditor: That's really good to hear. Thanks for providing such a swift response. You could probably detect the note of panic in my posting!

I suppose a follow-on question is whether this compatibility is likely to be carried forward into future models. In other words, will a Panasonic (or other) player of four or five years' time be more or less likely to play recordings made on a BW880 in 2012 than those available now? At the moment I'm almost tempted to buy another current Panasonic player of some kind, just as a fallback. But what a crazy situation. I'm accustomed to legacy problems with computer software, but this seems to be taking them to a new level!


depend on if they using standard blu-ray encryption (no idea how they doing it) but if they are then most like will work but depend on which key that get no the blacklist - this site has a good run down on how blu-ray works https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/BluRay

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 776028 7-Mar-2013 08:18
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aspiringeditor:
Anyway, I have a question on an aspect of this that may have been covered already (in which case I apologise); but if so I can't see it. The background is that I have a Panasonic BW880 recorder, and have used it to save about forty or fifty films and other programmes for my own use on BD-RE disks.
...
My question is whether my recordings can be played on other PANASONIC Blu-ray players. Does anybody know? My worry is that if they will never play on ANY player, even a Panasonic, unless it is specifically my own existing one, then if that machine dies (which undoubtedly it will one day), all my recordings will die with it.


That is a thought-provoking question indeed.  If it is possible to play such recordings on another Panasonic device, then a) that significantly weakens the whole copy-protection aspect, since this second device may not be your own; and b) it effectively forces you as a consumer to stay with the Panasonic brand forever, which could well be construed as an anti-competitive action, and raise the ire of the Commerce Commission on another front.

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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 776574 8-Mar-2013 00:56
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That is a thought-provoking question indeed.  If it is possible to play such recordings on another Panasonic device, then a) that significantly weakens the whole copy-protection aspect, since this second device may not be your own; and b) it effectively forces you as a consumer to stay with the Panasonic brand forever, which could well be construed as an anti-competitive action, and raise the ire of the Commerce Commission on another front.


And this answer is thought-provoking too, since it offers two such contradictory views! Point a) is bad for consumers, whereas point b) is good for them. I can see the arguments for both, but as a layman in all this, I find the first point quite challenging. Do you really feel that there could ever be justification for the concept where removable media should only ever be playable on the device that recorded it?

I simply can't see that. What if the device breaks forever? Why should the buyer be penalised by its failure, and have to sacrifice all the trouble and expense incurred in obtaining the material recorded with it? They would be losing twice over.

I do see that if recorded material can be played on another similar device, this device might not be owned by the person who recorded it; but if the content is copy-protected, it can't be played on more than one device at a time. I can see that in a Machiavellian world, someone might record a movie, then lend (or even sell ) it to someone else to view on their own equipment, and so on; but only one other person could view it at a time, so this "replication" would be a very slow and ponderous process. Is this really an issue? Not in the world I move in. Perhaps I'm simply being naive! But in any case, surely the right to play the material you recorded, even if your machine ceases to work, should override the right of the maker to prevent it because of a paranoia about copyright?

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  Reply # 776612 8-Mar-2013 07:54
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aspiringeditor:
I simply can't see that. What if the device breaks forever? Why should the buyer be penalised by its failure, and have to sacrifice all the trouble and expense incurred in obtaining the material recorded with it? They would be losing twice over.

I do see that if recorded material can be played on another similar device, this device might not be owned by the person who recorded it; but if the content is copy-protected, it can't be played on more than one device at a time. I can see that in a Machiavellian world, someone might record a movie, then lend (or even sell ) it to someone else to view on their own equipment, and so on; but only one other person could view it at a time, so this "replication" would be a very slow and ponderous process. Is this really an issue? Not in the world I move in. Perhaps I'm simply being naive! But in any case, surely the right to play the material you recorded, even if your machine ceases to work, should override the right of the maker to prevent it because of a paranoia about copyright?


You do have to remember that there is no provision in the law for long term storage of recorded content, ie TV recordings. The law only allows you to keep these for a reasonable period to allow watching the content. There is also no legal entitlement to format shift video, whether this be media you have purchased or a TV show that you've recorded.


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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 777207 9-Mar-2013 04:07
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You do have to remember that there is no provision in the law for long term storage of recorded content, ie TV recordings. The law only allows you to keep these for a reasonable period to allow watching the content. There is also no legal entitlement to format shift video, whether this be media you have purchased or a TV show that you've recorded


I can see that this seems a very fair point. It sounds is if you know the legal position here, and I'm happy to defer to you. However, I suspect that this definition of recording doesn't in any reflect the way people in the real world actually make recordings. People keep material to view in their own time, without regard to what might seem a "reasonable period" (what an imprecise measure!).

You might respond that this is a grey area, and that if consumers sometimes succeed in recording and keeping material for a long time, that's just their good luck. But surely the whole industry tacitly colludes with them in their delusion? Why are Blu-ray recordable media available at all if people are expected to dump their recordings after a reasonable time (whatever that is)? Disks are not (so far as I know) sold on the basis that they will be tied forever to a single recorder, and people simply don't buy them on that basis.

Previous types of recording media (DVD, for instance) have not so far as I know been subjected the same constraints on their use. It has been possible to buy disks, record broadcast material on them, and in effect keep it forever. Whatever the fine points of the law, this is an established practice, and one that people have understood for years. If the era of Blu-ray really does imply much tighter control, suppliers should make it much clearer, otherwise (as other people have implied in this thread) they're not really playing straight with customers. In effect, they're trying to have it both ways - constraining the technology, yet allowing people to believe they have freedom to use it as they expect.

All very philosophical! But really I just want to be assued I can view movies I've recorded when I'm ready, not when I'm told to, and not to be dependent on my original machine working forever.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 777248 9-Mar-2013 09:18
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aspiringeditor: If the era of Blu-ray really does imply much tighter control, suppliers should make it much clearer, otherwise (as other people have implied in this thread) they're not really playing straight with customers. In effect, they're trying to have it both ways - constraining the technology, yet allowing people to believe they have freedom to use it as they expect.

Blu Ray discs and Panasonic are not the problem. Freeview NZ is the problem. For some reason they don't want people transferring their HD transmissions from the HDD on one machine to a PC or other machine. Presumably their thinking is if this were possible it becomes too easy for format shifting and piracy. Dumping the recording to Blu Ray disc (or in SD on DVD) seems to be OK though. Also their SD transmissions such as Prime, Maori etc don't suffer the same problem. However with the proliferation of non-Freeview certified devices around (probably heaps more then there are certified devices) you have to wonder why they bothered with the transfer constraints in the first place.
Of course if you have a non-Freeview certified tuner card in your PC and a Blu Ray writer you can manipulete Freeview recordings however you like. Likewise with a non-Freeview PVR.
It's basically the same flawed thinking that gave us DVD & Blu Ray Zones and Regions and that hasn't worked. Any player can easily be made Zone and Region free.

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  Reply # 777271 9-Mar-2013 10:02
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B1GGLZ: Blu Ray discs and Panasonic are not the problem. Freeview NZ is the problem. For some reason they don't want people transferring their HD transmissions from the HDD on one machine to a PC or other machine. Presumably their thinking is if this were possible it becomes too easy for format shifting and piracy. Dumping the recording to Blu Ray disc (or in SD on DVD) seems to be OK though. Also their SD transmissions such as Prime, Maori etc don't suffer the same problem. However with the proliferation of non-Freeview certified devices around (probably heaps more then there are certified devices) you have to wonder why they bothered with the transfer constraints in the first place.


The reasons are pretty straighty forward.

A certified device has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the broadcast platform (Freeview). The broadcast platform has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the broadcaster (TV channel).  The broadcaster has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the content owner that they've purchased the content from.

Yes it's a waste of time in many ways - but it's the content owners mandating the DRM and everybody else further down the food chain has no real option but to abide by it.

 
 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 777860 11-Mar-2013 10:53
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sbiddle:The reasons are pretty straighty forward.

A certified device has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the broadcast platform (Freeview). The broadcast platform has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the broadcaster (TV channel).  The broadcaster has to abide by the DRM restrictions improsed by the content owner that they've purchased the content from.

Yes it's a waste of time in many ways - but it's the content owners mandating the DRM and everybody else further down the food chain has no real option but to abide by it.

 
 


what sbiddle say - it all come back to content owner and what they want - when tvnz, sky, tv3 etc buy rights to content - it not you won the right here you go on all media formats - it you got the right to boardcast this for next x days (normal year+)  in sd or hd format and can be reboardcast x time and on online IF you buy the rights to this and if HD then you need to stop people copying it off in HD format - you do not like this? ok we will give to the other people bidding for this under these terms. this is why sometime it not on-demand, as the broadcaster have decided that buying the on-line rights is not worth the investment, and why it geo-fence to NZ IP addresses when it is on-demand, as they only have NZ online rights, not world rights.

content owner have big power over what term that broadcaster have, and it cost big $$$$ to get the rights too.

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