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Topic # 26328 18-Sep-2008 12:46
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Hi All
I thought I would create this thread due to the fact that TV3 looks terrible IMHO. What is it with the broadcast signal.
This is what I have observed.
When the camare pans. OMG it is just disgusting If there is charactor moving accross the screen it is like watching a really bad animator at work.
Pixeleation as scenes start or finish (compression atrifacts not dropout).
I have watched tv3 in HD and it looks the same to me.
Constantly changing colour and contrast settings. tv3 news in the studio looks as if thay have used really bad makeup to get a tan, where outside broadcasts look fine and of good contrast and colour.

How am I qualified to slag off the picture. I was trained as a television technician over 25 years ago and have seen tvs through the changes for the better most of the time.

TV3 has gone one step back with 1080i. IMHO

All other content HD or SD on tv1 tv2 c4 at 720p looks great, no jerky camera motion sickness. The HD Demo channel is stunning.

It just looks bad, blaming tvs and recievers is just not on. I tried every output method I can find and it looks bad on them all.
Here are a few devices I observed the issue on.
Sky digital mysky HDi SD/HD
Freeview HD (visione zinwell vantage)
TV3 on terestrial non digital is not the best but it is better (more watchable) in SD more fluid .

I have a 42 inch tv set for 720p or 1080i HD demo is stunning ( I prefer 720p 1080i interlace causes dithering top and bottom of images).

I also have a haupauge hvr 4000 it tv3 looks bad on my pc that can eat 1080i for breakfast due to Hardware acceleration. Still looks bad compared to tv2 for instance in SD.

The quality is supposed to get better. With HD if TV3 video was the benchmark I reckon HD would not survive.
It works in the states even when HD images are recorded as SD. they do not exhibit the same poor motion.


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  Reply # 165320 18-Sep-2008 12:52
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I have to say I disagree entirely. TV3's HD picture is awesome.

I do agree with you that 720p is a superior standard to 1080i due to the simple fact all panels are progressive so it seems rather pointless transmitting an interlacd signal these days but don't have issues with anything you've mentioned above.


I also have a haupauge hvr 4000 it tv3 looks bad on my pc that can eat 1080i for breakfast due to Hardware acceleration. Still looks bad compared to tv2 for instance in SD.


The hardware requirements for DVB-T are a minimum dual core and a video card such as an NVidia 8500 or greater with a H.264 codec capable of hardware acceleration such as Arcosft TotalMedia Theatre or PowerDVD7 or PowerDVD8 is essential. If you don't have a system that meets those requirements then you will get a terrible picture.





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  Reply # 165324 18-Sep-2008 13:03
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Yep I have HA and a dual core 3 gig vista or xp. I am just annoyed with the fact it looks jerky. I have no complaints with  tv1 or any other channel it is just TV3 looks bad to me. Maybe it is the Christchurch transponder? I mean the data has to be sent to sugarloaf some how. Maybe the transport stream is reduced. I have noticed the data rate is the same as 720p for some reason.   



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  Reply # 165326 18-Sep-2008 13:07
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Sorry, can't say that I've noticed this either.  TV3 have once again led the way with getting HD content and dolby surround to air ahead of all other channels.  On my displays there is simply no way I could compare TV3 UHF freeview signal to the older analogue signal. 

What display are you using and what connection style?  Panning issues sound like interlacing problems that could be display specific maybe?  Bad makeup being apparent is an unfortunate side effect of better picture definition! 

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  Reply # 165345 18-Sep-2008 14:05
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coolvibe: Yep I have HA and a dual core 3 gig vista or xp. I am just annoyed with the fact it looks jerky. I have no complaints with  tv1 or any other channel it is just TV3 looks bad to me. Maybe it is the Christchurch transponder? I mean the data has to be sent to sugarloaf some how. Maybe the transport stream is reduced. I have noticed the data rate is the same as 720p for some reason.   




Sounds like a setup issue. What type of connection are you using between the PC and TV? What software and codec are you using?

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  Reply # 165348 18-Sep-2008 14:22
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TV3 looks great to me. TV1 Olympics was pretty good, especially given the amount of compression that must have taken place to transmit the signal from Beijing but TV3 sets the standard as far as I am concerned w.r.t. HD. Not only do they have the most programming, they do DD5.1 when they can and DD2.0 when they can't.

I am watching on a Popcorn Hour.




System One: Popcorn Hour A200,  PS3 SuperSlim, NPVR and Plex Server running on Gigabyte Brix (Windows 10 Pro), Sony BDP-S390 BD player, Pioneer AVR, Raspberry Pi running Kodi and Plex, Panasonic 60" 3D plasma, Google Chromecast

System Two: Popcorn Hour A200 ,  Oppo BDP-80 BluRay Player with hardware mode to be region free, Vivitek HD1080P 1080P DLP projector with 100" screen. Harman Kardon HK AVR 254 7.1 receiver, Samsung 4K player, Google Chromecast

 


My Google+ page 

 

 

 

https://plus.google.com/+laurencechiu

 

 




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Geek


  Reply # 165352 18-Sep-2008 14:42
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sbiddle:
coolvibe: Yep I have HA and a dual core 3 gig vista or xp. I am just annoyed with the fact it looks jerky. I have no complaints with  tv1 or any other channel it is just TV3 looks bad to me. Maybe it is the Christchurch transponder? I mean the data has to be sent to sugarloaf some how. Maybe the transport stream is reduced. I have noticed the data rate is the same as 720p for some reason.   




Sounds like a setup issue. What type of connection are you using between the PC and TV? What software and codec are you using?
I am using component. I have also tried dvi to my lcd tv that has a a dvi input. Hardware accel h.264 (this is much better than the software h.264 codec nice and clear).
Normally I would use the vantage box HD component output. 
I have no HDMI connector so my sky box show HD as SD out of the component. 
I expected TV3 to get better as TV1 etc  does (c4 is mostly pants but that is just contentTongue out). So the issue is TV3 bad rest good so how can it be my setup. unless 1080i is screwing around with setup. eg
720p in 720p out monitor resolution set to 1280*768 so it will ever so slightly upscale. ( tv1 tv2 etc super)
1080i in 720p out vvantage will do the translation to 720p downsacling and deinterlacing. (tv3 pants)
1080i in 1080i out vantage does nothing tv does downscaling and deinterlacing (tv3 pants)

 So what I think I am saying is 1080i is a bad choice of resolution. 1080i is for monitors that can not do full 1080p HD 
To be honest a pc looks crap with output of 1080i I hate the interlace effect for pcs. However this is a different effect than the motion jerkyness I am seeing.

A monitor trying to display 1080i on a 768 resolution screen is going to cause loss of quality. As we all know you can not squeeze in an extra 212 vertical lines without leaving some of the old lines behind and replacing the majority. may be that is what I am seeing.

First frame odd lines 530 lines then second frame even lines another  530 so there fore 238 lines per scan do not get replaced or they are duplicated. 

I hope I do not point out something that people have not noticed before ignorance is bliss. once you see the effect it starts to be really annoying.
 
My tv is a sony grand wega 42 inch, it gives a perfect picture on TV1 a bettter picture than most of the new lcds you can get at present. And certanly better fast motion than my full HD monitor at work so I am not going to replace it any time soon. 

I just had an idea I will record TV3 and bring it to work with the vantage and see if the same effect occurs on my monitor that is 1900 *1200 resolution FULL HD capable. just to see.





 

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  Reply # 165354 18-Sep-2008 14:53
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Using a component output is the start of your problems. You should really only be using a VGA or DVI/HDMI input for video from a computer if you want good results. If you TV supports 1:1 pixel mapping over DVI/HDMI then this is a preferable option to VGA. If your TV doesn't support 1:1 pixel mapping then most people will pick VGA input but you can potentially face some juddering issues trying to view 50Hz content if you are running a TV at 1280x768@60Hz.


I hope I do not point out something that people have not noticed before ignorance is bliss. once you see the effect it starts to be really annoying.


If the issues you were mentioning were actually happening I'm sure a lot of other people would be complaining. I suspect it's an issue with your setup rather than a TV3 issue.



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  Reply # 165363 18-Sep-2008 15:21
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sbiddle: Using a component output is the start of your problems. You should really only be using a VGA or DVI/HDMI input for video from a computer if you want good results. If you TV supports 1:1 pixel mapping over DVI/HDMI then this is a preferable option to VGA. If your TV doesn't support 1:1 pixel mapping then most people will pick VGA input but you can potentially face some juddering issues trying to view 50Hz content if you are running a TV at 1280x768@60Hz.


I hope I do not point out something that people have not noticed before ignorance is bliss. once you see the effect it starts to be really annoying.


If the issues you were mentioning were actually happening I'm sure a lot of other people would be complaining. I suspect it's an issue with your setup rather than a TV3 issue.
Unfortunatly my tv is one of those HD ready jobs before those *$%****s decided that hdmi with hdcp was the way to go. It has no vga just many component and composite. When I used component from my pc with TV1 or HD Demo was stunning as it is with the fvantage box. I only just got TV3 working with HA on my pc using xp and vista. You can see the thread on the gbpvr forum.  I have not retried with my pc yet. that is for an evening the wife is out and I can claim the lounge for while.

So at present it sounds to me from what you are saying that I could have an issue with tv3 1080i rather than the source tv3 signal? 
Which takes me back to my original point why use 1080i when 720p works so much better on pre standardised HD sets ( there are lots of these in NZ).
ps I would bet that most HD content is bought in 720p and upscaled to 1080i.  eg prison break recorded format 720p,  terminator sarah connor chornicles 720p, the middleman 720p ( NZ will have to wait for that one). I can watch these in their orignal format perfectly but not via TV3 get my drift...



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  Reply # 165367 18-Sep-2008 15:30
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sbiddle:

I do agree with you that 720p is a superior standard to 1080i due to the simple fact all panels are progressive so it seems rather pointless transmitting an interlacd signal these days but don't have issues with anything you've mentioned above.


I disagree -- with 1080i and film based content (ie. virtually all non-factual content) with a decent deinterlacer the full 1080p resolution can be obtained without any loss.

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  Reply # 165368 18-Sep-2008 15:39
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Can you confirm the resolution of your panel from the manual?
Pre HDCP HDMI / DVI only input raises some doubts.....

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  Reply # 165370 18-Sep-2008 15:41
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samj01:
sbiddle:

I do agree with you that 720p is a superior standard to 1080i due to the simple fact all panels are progressive so it seems rather pointless transmitting an interlacd signal these days but don't have issues with anything you've mentioned above.


I disagree -- with 1080i and film based content (ie. virtually all non-factual content) with a decent deinterlacer the full 1080p resolution can be obtained without any loss.


I don't disagree. But therein lies another issue.

A high end broadcast quality deinterlacer like those installed by TVNZ costs big $$$ (I heard somewhere around $20k) and is far superior to the deinterlscer in your average TV that probably has $5 worth of components. Since the end user's TV or STB has to convert this to a progressive signal to display on a TV it what point is there transmitting interlaced content when most end users will have an inferior deinterlacer than that used by a broadcaster who's transmitting 720p content?



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  Reply # 165374 18-Sep-2008 15:47
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Jaxson: Can you confirm the resolution of your panel from the manual?
Pre HDCP HDMI / DVI only input raises some doubts.....
Yep it is a 1280* 768 sony 3 lcd rear projector it can support 576p 720p 1080i    



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  Reply # 165380 18-Sep-2008 15:50
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sbiddle:
samj01:
sbiddle:

I do agree with you that 720p is a superior standard to 1080i due to the simple fact all panels are progressive so it seems rather pointless transmitting an interlacd signal these days but don't have issues with anything you've mentioned above.


I disagree -- with 1080i and film based content (ie. virtually all non-factual content) with a decent deinterlacer the full 1080p resolution can be obtained without any loss.


I don't disagree. But therein lies another issue.

A high end broadcast quality deinterlacer like those installed by TVNZ costs big $$$ (I heard somewhere around $20k) and is far superior to the deinterlscer in your average TV that probably has $5 worth of components. Since the end user's TV or STB has to convert this to a progressive signal to display on a TV it what point is there transmitting interlaced content when most end users will have an inferior deinterlacer than that used by a broadcaster who's transmitting 720p content?
You should be on the board of tv3 :-)I think I you agree with me 1080i bad 720p good because the tv has to do less work on the signal? All my 720p looks good. 

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  Reply # 165382 18-Sep-2008 15:56
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Have you seen these same problems on other TV's / full HD displays?
Personally I have not seen the problems you describe on the displays I have viewed. 
Maybe your TV specifically has a hard job decoding 1080i. 



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  Reply # 165393 18-Sep-2008 16:06
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Jaxson: Have you seen these same problems on other TV's / full HD displays?
Personally I have not seen the problems you describe on the displays I have viewed. 
Maybe your TV specifically has a hard job decoding 1080i. 
Could you try this on a non full and perhaps a full HD display using component. set the output of the decoder to 720p only and select TV3 check the picture quality especially on motion. then try at 1080i. Much appreciated. that is how I mostly setup my system. I tried 1080i and did not like it / saw no difference in quality tv1 suffered slightly.

MY Mysky hdi will not switch into HD due to hdcp bull so I can't test it with that source, and I am not going to buy a HDFURY2 to by pass hdcp on my mysky box, if it is still going to look like pants on TV3 through component.







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