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  Reply # 165632 19-Sep-2008 13:39
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Jaxson: Way less than $249 us gets you an ET box from satlink that does not have restricted component out and does not have hdcp on hdmi out.
I have a vantage but that has a slightt glitch with my sony at 1080i. unless I switch to ntsc. Also all the ET visione and vantage stb all have bad SD output on composite unwatchable on a 42 inch screen (line duplication it causes any diagonal line to look badly stepped). I sent the visione back because of the sd output not being fixed in a timely manner. I have the vantage on evaluation. I am still reviewing it. From what I can remember the visione worked at 1080i with my tv. However I still cannot record TV3 and watch it without jerk unless I use the uhf analouge signal. So I need a method of getting tv3 in 1080i and SD without the line duplication issue. It will happen.  
 


 



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  Reply # 167749 29-Sep-2008 14:08
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This was the response from sky about tv3 non HD out of a mysky hdi box
Response (SKY Tech Team) 28/09/2008 01.31 PM
HI the agreement we signed with the major studios and broadcasters says we have to allow the HDCP to be on all the time. The output via scart to rca should be ok to go through unless you are viewing a program with content protection.Even the component out should be ok for this. 
********************
But yes the standard definition through a non 1080 set will look a little blurred, there is nothing we can do about this at this time.

********************
I knew I was not imagining it.
It's all tv3s fault.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 167750 29-Sep-2008 14:19
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coolvibe: This was the response from sky about tv3 non HD out of a mysky hdi box
Response (SKY Tech Team) 28/09/2008 01.31 PM
HI the agreement we signed with the major studios and broadcasters says we have to allow the HDCP to be on all the time. The output via scart to rca should be ok to go through unless you are viewing a program with content protection.Even the component out should be ok for this. 
********************
But yes the standard definition through a non 1080 set will look a little blurred, there is nothing we can do about this at this time.

********************
I knew I was not imagining it.
It's all tv3s fault.


?? How is anything TV3's fault?

There is no issue at all with TV3's picture when it's fed from a decent STB or PVR into a TV at the proper aspect ratio with 1:1 pixel mapping. I watch TV3 all the time and find the picture stunning and don't see any of the issues you experience. Trust me, if these issues were there people would be complaining.

If you're trying to downscale, upscale, modify the aspect ratio, use a non certified STB with buggy firmware, feed a PC input into a TV at a resoltuion that doesn't offer 1:1 pixel mapping, run Sky HD into a TV that doesn't suport HDCP you *will* have problems. This isn't TV3's fault.



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  Reply # 167764 29-Sep-2008 15:20
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sbiddle:
coolvibe: This was the response from sky about tv3 non HD out of a mysky hdi box
Response (SKY Tech Team) 28/09/2008 01.31 PM
HI the agreement we signed with the major studios and broadcasters says we have to allow the HDCP to be on all the time. The output via scart to rca should be ok to go through unless you are viewing a program with content protection.Even the component out should be ok for this. 
********************
But yes the standard definition through a non 1080 set will look a little blurred, there is nothing we can do about this at this time.

********************
I knew I was not imagining it.
It's all tv3s fault.


?? How is anything TV3's fault?

There is no issue at all with TV3's picture when it's fed from a decent STB or PVR into a TV at the proper aspect ratio with 1:1 pixel mapping. I watch TV3 all the time and find the picture stunning and don't see any of the issues you experience. Trust me, if these issues were there people would be complaining.

If you're trying to downscale, upscale, modify the aspect ratio, use a non certified STB with buggy firmware, feed a PC input into a TV at a resoltuion that doesn't offer 1:1 pixel mapping, run Sky HD into a TV that doesn't suport HDCP you *will* have problems. This isn't TV3's fault.
Ok Here is my issue Tv3 send 1080i HD to sky and freevieew  sky cannot turn off hdcp even when the content is NOT HD. I do not have nor want hdmi +hdcpI can watch tv3 on my pc no motion blur I have not found a freeview box that has 1080i component output that is within tolerance of my tv 1080i unless I switch to ntsc (not going there). 
I just want a good quality picture be it 576p or whatever. TV3 have basically stuffed up any chance of me getting a good quality pictcure in any resolution other than UHF anolouge which does not suffer from motion blur, however I get the noise and the reason digital is good is because it does not exhibit all of the ghosting etc that can be assosiated with a standard uhf aeriel.
 I can download content from the internet in lower resolution than 576p and it does not have motion blurriness and looks clear compared to anolouge. I think I will just stick with downloading at least I have a choice of what quality I download. HDCP is a bad idea. Zoneing dvds was and still is a bad idea. Just because electronics manufactureres make something so as to covertly boost sales in new technologies, does not make it fair to all of the people out there with high end tvs less than 2 years old that are not compatible with the New technologies.  
Just to make sure understand the motion blur I will give ena example. 1080i will do this if an object moves it will move linearly consider a pixel moving from left to right

100000 
010000 
001000 000100 
000010 000001 
sd will do this if the downscaler works correctly.100000 
001000 000010 

what I see is something like this.
100000 
010000 
000100 
I used to program video games and from that knowledge I know this. I had to lock all motion to frame rates otherwise you see the objects jerk. I hated jerk /blur with a passion.

For an object to move smoothly accross the screen it has to have a constant rate or rate of change. ie 1 pixel per frame or 2 pixels per frame etc.

If an object moves 1 pixel then 3 then 1 then 3 then 1 it will look jerky it does not look "Normal". Interlace is the worst because images can move in between half frames where as progressive is per full frame so everything moves smoothly. 
Now imagine an object moving at 12 pixels per frame and coming to a halt. I miss the intgermediate frames some how. So I see jerk. This is of course taking into account that sometimes an object will go at 1.5 pixels per frame or any multiple. As long as the maths is correct it should stay smooth.

Duplicating or dropping frames causes jerk/blur (this is what I think stbs are doing incorrectly). I don't think a lot of people will notice this effect. 

It actally looks like a badly handled camera ( no stabalisation).It always occurs when the camera pans or people move accross the sets.

If I had not seen 1080i working corectly albeit in ntsc on my tv, I would have had to accept it was a source issue. Now I know it is occuring at my end due to downscaling to 576p or even downscaling to 720p. 

The TV3 source is fine. it is just upscaling Standard def at the source that causes issues in standard def that could have been avoided. HD 1080i I have still to get a box thats compatible.720p does not do this.

That HDFURY 2 adapter is looking more and more attractive.










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  Reply # 167775 29-Sep-2008 16:04
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Get used to 1080i, it is a valid broadcasting standard.

The major distributors are a fairly 50/50 split between 720P (eg. ABC, FOX) and 1080i (eg. CBS, NBC).  TV3 is simply re broadcasting at a different resolution than the others, and that doesn't make it the wrong resolution. 

Have you tried viewing TV3 on a more modern setup up to see if you see the same results there?  Have you tried passing a 1080i signal into your TV from another source to rule out it being an inability of your display to show this properly? 

It's the general consensus here that TV3 probably offers the best picture at the moment out of all the channels, and coupled with 5.1 surround I think they're doing pretty well to be honest.



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  Reply # 167779 29-Sep-2008 16:44
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Jaxson: Get used to 1080i, it is a valid broadcasting standard.

The major distributors are a fairly 50/50 split between 720P (eg. ABC, FOX) and 1080i (eg. CBS, NBC).  TV3 is simply re broadcasting at a different resolution than the others, and that doesn't make it the wrong resolution. 

Have you tried viewing TV3 on a more modern setup up to see if you see the same results there?  Have you tried passing a 1080i signal into your TV from another source to rule out it being an inability of your display to show this properly? 

It's the general consensus here that TV3 probably offers the best picture at the moment out of all the channels, and coupled with 5.1 surround I think they're doing pretty well to be honest.

Yep it is my setup I can get it to work by tweaking but not as I would like NTSC is not a good standard (the colour is over saturated so I have to use different video contrast /colour settings depending on signal source).
But it could have been avoided. TV3 are in effect forcing me to get an hdmi capable reciever, If I want to watch digital over the air in HD or SD. that is my gripe I would be quite happy with SD. Who can afford to throw $3000 worth of tv out after 2 years. 
The average life time of a tv was 5 years.  I know of many tvs that have lasted 15 years plus before the tube goes or the set develops a terminal fault.
Imagine if you bought a brand new car 2 years ago and now you can only get fuel from certain garages. Who would buy your second hand car and what has happened to the value.My tv Sony HD ready 42 inch tv is now worth $0 unless I invest in a device that defeats hdcp on the hdmi output from any source .
I don't want to copy the stuff If I did my pc does that without a glitch and no hastles. 
What is the point of HDCP being enabled it is to dam late.  TV3 have made sky leave HDCP on all the time when I and many others with a haupauge 4000 can just record off the air and transcode it to what ever. 

God help us all! HD good HDCP bad
  
 



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  Reply # 167782 29-Sep-2008 17:08
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coolvibe: TV3 are in effect forcing me to get an hdmi capable reciever, If I want to watch digital over the air in HD or SD. that is my gripe I would be quite happy with SD.


I disagree entirely.

TV3's Freeview feed is SD only - you don't need a TV set with HDMI to view this content in SD.

I've also yet to see the symptoms you describe with a Zinwell box using the component output downscaling TV3's 1080i to 576i (not 576p as you mention). The 576i component output from the Zinwell's I have played with is very good.

Your arguements about not wanting to throw out a newish TV are valid but the reality is if you want the newest features you have to have new equipment. It's been well known for the past 3 or so years in NZ that HD content would be DRM protected and require HDMI to work.

The reality of HDCP is that it's here and it's a requirement of broadcasters to enable HDCP if they want access to HD content to due restrictions being placed upon them by content owners. There have still been no changes that I'm aware of to the 2012 cutoff date where the ICT flag will have to be enforced.

On a side note while you can decode HD on a PC you are potentially in breach of the new copyright laws which prevent the circumvention of DRM, the same issue also potentially applies to anybody selling a STB that bypasses the ICT flag (if this is transmitted) to offer HD component output.



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  Reply # 167930 30-Sep-2008 10:10
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sbiddle:
coolvibe: TV3 are in effect forcing me to get an hdmi capable reciever, If I want to watch digital over the air in HD or SD. that is my gripe I would be quite happy with SD.


I disagree entirely.

TV3's Freeview feed is SD only - you don't need a TV set with HDMI to view this content in SD.

I've also yet to see the symptoms you describe with a Zinwell box using the component output downscaling TV3's 1080i to 576i (not 576p as you mention). The 576i component output from the Zinwell's I have played with is very good.

Your arguements about not wanting to throw out a newish TV are valid but the reality is if you want the newest features you have to have new equipment. It's been well known for the past 3 or so years in NZ that HD content would be DRM protected and require HDMI to work.

The reality of HDCP is that it's here and it's a requirement of broadcasters to enable HDCP if they want access to HD content to due restrictions being placed upon them by content owners. There have still been no changes that I'm aware of to the 2012 cutoff date where the ICT flag will have to be enforced.

On a side note while you can decode HD on a PC you are potentially in breach of the new copyright laws which prevent the circumvention of DRM, the same issue also potentially applies to anybody selling a STB that bypasses the ICT flag (if this is transmitted) to offer HD component output.
No TV3s feed is in 1080i  to mysky hd And on freeview tv3 is always in 1080i regardless of the content being hd or not uplscaled if not HD. I have not tried the Zinwell SD output I don't have one, I have tried the Visione ( same box as the eXtra)  and the vantage. Both of these boxes do not give a good SD output through composite. it looks total garbage take a look. Tv1 looks really bad where tv3 is slightly better. You will see horizontal line duplication it looks like 1 line sometimes is displayed 3 times and a line is missed out /dropped. 
I Don't buy into the copyright argument. If the content is good people will pay. It is the distribution model that is flawed. Once the distribution model is sorted. They will not need copyright. I pay for a service so that I can watch what I want when I want.  
Having had my work copied in the past by the home user, we found It actually increased the sales of product when the next product came out.
It is proffesional copiers doing it for personal gain that causes the problem and puts the squeeze on content providors. See the item on stuff a few days ago. "downloading everyone is doing it".Watched TV3 analouge last night super no motion sickness LOL.





 

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  Reply # 167932 30-Sep-2008 10:19
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coolvibe:  I have not tried the Zinwell SD output I don't have one, I have tried the Visione ( same box as the eXtra)  and the vantage. Both of these boxes do not give a good SD output through composite. it looks total garbage take a look. Tv1 looks really bad where tv3 is slightly better. You will see horizontal line duplication it looks like 1 line sometimes is displayed 3 times and a line is missed out /dropped. 


That's the scaling in the STB, not TV3 or Freeview's problem. As I said I've never experienced any picture issues viewing this on an approved Zinwell box - maybe this is one of the reasons these boxes haven't been approved by Freeview?



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  Reply # 167945 30-Sep-2008 10:48
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sbiddle:
coolvibe:  I have not tried the Zinwell SD output I don't have one, I have tried the Visione ( same box as the eXtra)  and the vantage. Both of these boxes do not give a good SD output through composite. it looks total garbage take a look. Tv1 looks really bad where tv3 is slightly better. You will see horizontal line duplication it looks like 1 line sometimes is displayed 3 times and a line is missed out /dropped. 


That's the scaling in the STB, not TV3 or Freeview's problem. As I said I've never experienced any picture issues viewing this on an approved Zinwell box - maybe this is one of the reasons these boxes haven't been approved by Freeview?
Your not wrong there, yep the Non certified stbs need work. Also they are not approved because they do not turn off HD out of component. 
I did not buy a Zinwell because it would not give me HD out of component. Also the zinwell totally stuffs up the prime uhf signal as it loops through the box. It causes harmonics. A neighbor has one and can no longer watch prime. All said rule of thumb applies always view in the format /resolution sent from the source.
I am happy to be unhappy at least I know what the cause is and how to fix it 
1 hdmi switch box 1 hd fury 2 problem solved forever. 





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  Reply # 168001 30-Sep-2008 14:53
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coolvibe: Your not wrong there, yep the Non certified stbs need work. Also they are not approved because they do not turn off HD out of component. 
I did not buy a Zinwell because it would not give me HD out of component. Also the zinwell totally stuffs up the prime uhf signal as it loops through the box. It causes harmonics. A neighbor has one and can no longer watch prime. All said rule of thumb applies always view in the format /resolution sent from the source.
I am happy to be unhappy at least I know what the cause is and how to fix it 
1 hdmi switch box 1 hd fury 2 problem solved forever. 


So split the feed before the box if you have a problem with its RF passthru. I cant say I have seen any problems with it when I was "trialing" one from DSE, everything that went in came out with no visilble changes. but I do have the RF levels here pretty well equalized, if your antenna installation was done by some cowboy installer with not field strenght meter and no provisions were made to equalize the signals then perhaps you are overloading the amplifier in the zinwell and the prime is so weak because of its position on the upper end of the UHF band and you have no cable compensation going on?




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  Reply # 168026 30-Sep-2008 15:51
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I still don't quite understand what the issue with TV3 is.  As I understand it, you're saying you don't like that they upscale their non HD content to 1080i, which is a standard high def transmission resolution.  TVNZ do the same and upscale to the other standard HD transmission resolution of 720p.  What's the problem here?

Your TV does not do hdmi in or hdmi adapted to dvi because of hdcp.  The zinwell does this as well, I had a similar issue with my older dvi only tv.  It would not work with the zinwell hdmi output, no matter what the broadcast resolution was, on any channel.  I switched to the et box and I can now connect on all resolutions via dvi or component out. 

The composite out is now not too bad on most channels, I recorded TV1 last week via svideo out of the et box and the result was perfectly watchable and in widescreen stereo, which I couldn't get via cropped mono normal analogue tv.

Sounds like your TV has issues with 1080i signals, have you checked with another 1080i source?  None of this is TV3's fault.  To use your analogy of a car, you have bought a classic car that requires a lead squirt to run on newer unleaded fuel, and is now not compatible with newer technology bio fuel.  That's not the fault of the bio fuel manufacturer.


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