Sony HD Ready TV's - Certified HD Freeview Impossible without HDMI?

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Geek

#238974 25-Jul-2009 23:33

Without the logo, the phrase HD Ready is just that, a phrase. The linked pdf is only useful if they had the logo when they should not have.

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Hinko

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Master Geek

#239006 26-Jul-2009 08:54

Thank you Talkiet for your kind post, I appreciate that it displays balance and I really like it because it really helps illustrate one of my key points, that of what is; and more to the point, what is NOT in the documentation and manual?

Talkiet: Sony didn't deliberately take steps to accelerate the demise of the TVs...

What would you call designing in and implementing downscaling of HD to SD for component in particular circumstances? A design accident?

Consumer pull required they put "HD Ready" TVs on the market, and at that point in time, that meant component input.....

Poor old Sony required by consumers to prematurely release TV's against their will while they worked away on HDMI and all its industry complications that Sony also had a hand in? Now come on. If a manufacturer releases a TV in the consumer setting they have to ensure it is fit for the purpose intended and also that it meets the promises made. If Sony had asked me I would have said their promises were foolish, however they may have needed to make them in the competitive market to drive sales, however as their people saw fit to make the promises, that created the obligation for Sony, it is entirely appropriate they honor their consumer promises. I find it disappointing that places like geekzone are necessary to discuss such matters, but it seems it is. Indeed I am surprised to be having this discussion about Sony, but there you are!

The problem however was that the industry rights holders got all upset at the analog hole which would effectively circumvent all the lovely anti-copy protections they were/are clinging to, and successfully managed to get the entire content producing industry to agree to restrictions on the analogue interfaces - namely the downscaling proposal.

The problem here is an industry problem and not the consumers problem. I do not appreciate Entertainment Industry pressure on TV manufacturers (I understand Sony sits in both camps here) assisting escaleted obsolence by design of my Sony TV. What consumer benefit is there in that? I understand the Industry has problems, when they want to make it my problem I am going to send it back where it belongs as it is not of my doing.

It's simply unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to guarantee you that future protocols or standards will be supported. The TV you bought is perfectly capable of displaying HD material. You're upset that it won't display all HD material

It is entirely reasonable to expect a manufacturer to meet its promises foolish or otherwise, they remain promises.

you didn't due your due diligence on the set when you bought it (in 2006?).

How is it Sony's fault you didn't read the specs well enough?

Now this is good and really is an important aspect of the matter. Can you enlighten me to the sections of the specs that I did not read well enough please? An example manual is available:

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/manual/product/kv-da32m36/modelfirst

(Sony does do their manuals well, I have to complement them on that, however that does not take away the other obligations Sony created for themselves)

I read the specs and promotional material before making the purchase, I long ago learned it was good to read the manual before buying technology to ensure one got what one was buying. Frequentyly when I buy something I know more about its use than the salesman does.

When I read the manual (or indeed any Sony promotional literature) I cannot find any reference to say:

1) That the TV HD overscans and effectively ony displays 81% of the image (Pictorial examples are given for SD that also show the case for HD - with NO overscanning)
2) That the HD overscanning cannot be turned off
3) That Sony is involved in producing technology that will downscale HD images to SD images that will effect this TV.
4) The TV's maximium resolution is limited to 625 horizontal lines.

What was it that I did not read well enough in the specs please?

Or perhaps, might I have a point here that Sony did not detail specifications they should have and in doing so created an obligation for them to deliver what IS detailed in the manual?

Nety

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#239008 26-Jul-2009 09:17

Hinko:
Nety: although it does now seem to be fairly safe to consider a HD ready TV to be able to do 720p/1080i

That would be nice if it actually displayed it!

My point was current sets not the set you purchased.

Hinko:
Nety: (note 1080i can still only use 720 lines)

Where does this come from?

The fact that all 720p capable sets can also display 1080i. This is obviously not because they have 1080 lines but because 1080i only has half of the 1080 line information in each frame so can "fit" in a 720p display.

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Talkiet

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#239011 26-Jul-2009 09:52

Hinko: [snip]
When I read the manual (or indeed any Sony promotional literature) I cannot find any reference to say:

1) That the TV HD overscans and effectively ony displays 81% of the image (Pictorial examples are given for SD that also show the case for HD - with NO overscanning)
2) That the HD overscanning cannot be turned off
3) That Sony is involved in producing technology that will downscale HD images to SD images that will effect this TV.
4) The TV's maximium resolution is limited to 625 horizontal lines.

What was it that I did not read well enough in the specs please?

Or perhaps, might I have a point here that Sony did not detail specifications they should have and in doing so created an obligation for them to deliver what IS detailed in the manual?

Sorry, but it's unreasonable to expect ANY manufacturer to document FUTURE issues that may occur.

I still believe this boils down to a very simple issue.

You bought a TV in 2006 (?) that included component inputs. I would wager that today, if you connected a component HD source such as a PC with a video card like a GF6600GT with component output, that you would have an excellent HD picture. I know, buecause I had a component only 32" Sony. I used it for media centre usage and it was wonderful.

Now however, you appear to want to hold Sony responsible for selling a TV that can't display current HD feeds because of an industry wide move to HDMI and HDCP which included current maufacturers agreeing to knobble analog outputs.

Your TV does no less than when you bought it, but NEW sources (Freeview boxes, Bluray players etc) won't work with it fully (even if they include component outputs).

If you bought a TV that claimed to be HD ready (or capable, or whatever) and it couldn't display HD, then you would have fair cause to feel aggrieved - but I strongly suspect when you connect a compatible source to your TV, it will display a wonderful HD picture.

No-one can guarantee forward compatibility.

If anyone (apart from yourself) is to blame here, it's the rest of the industry for changing what could be done with component outputs.

Sorry, my previous comments still stand. I reckon you should chalk this up to experience. I did.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

#239012 26-Jul-2009 09:59

Nety:
Hinko:
Nety: although it does now seem to be fairly safe to consider a HD ready TV to be able to do 720p/1080i

That would be nice if it actually displayed it!

My point was current sets not the set you purchased.

Hinko:
Nety: (note 1080i can still only use 720 lines)

Where does this come from?

The fact that all 720p capable sets can also display 1080i. This is obviously not because they have 1080 lines but because 1080i only has half of the 1080 line information in each frame so can "fit" in a 720p display.

I do not believe that is fact at all and while it is obvious to you the mis-understanding is obvious to me.

My understanding is that with interlaced displays the alternate lines are displayed, that means all the 1080 lines are required and at any point (simplistically) half of these are illuminated. Becasue it happens so fast we see 1080 lines. 1080i requires 1080 lines. (If the reader is still in doubt refer Wikipedia 1080i)

It seems the reason the TV displays 1080i is because there is a downscaler present in the TV that downscales the image to ~625 lines. (Who knows how many lines are overscanned in this context or if it is interlaced at that level?!) Same for 720p. This has only become apparent from investigating the lack of performance of the TV. Sony does not detail this anywhere publicly that I can find. Can you find it?

dickytim

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#239014 26-Jul-2009 10:20

I would like to know what exactly you want Sony to do, I understand that you feel hard done by, and can see how you get to this but is offering you 40% off a new TV not a good guesture? You have had 3 years of use of this TV which needs to be considered in any offer made to you. It is all very well to complain here but you haven't offered a solution to your own problem yet.

What do you want Sony to do?

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

#239017 26-Jul-2009 10:24

Talkiet: you didn't due your due diligence on the set when you bought it (in 2006?).

How is it Sony's fault you didn't read the specs well enough?

I await with interest what you say I missed reading in the manual. Please explain for us all.

Talkiet: I would wager that today, if you connected a component HD source such as a PC with a video card like a GF6600GT with component output, that you would have an excellent HD picture. I know, buecause I had a component only 32" Sony. I used it for media centre usage and it was wonderful.

Would you please define HD in this context please? It has been suggested in this thread a minimium of 720p? (720 x 1280) Would you accept that as HD here?

http://www.sony-asia.com/support/ShowGlossary.action?site=hp_en_AP_i&sectiontype=glossary says High Definition Television. Generic term used for TV technology producing images in a much higher quality picture than standard definition TVs. An HDTV set displays 720 up to 1,080 visible lines.

HDTV High Definition Television 1125, 1080, 1035 line interlaced and 720 and 1080 line progressive formats in a 16:aspect ratio.

Sony (only recently) says this set only displays 625 lines. It does not display accepted HD (Australia possibly excepted) according to Sony's definitions.

Do you recall the TV model?

The TV does display a very nice image, no doubt, but it is not true HD that it was promoted to be. It took me a long time to realise this, and it seems that fact that you thought it looked nice did not lead you to formally test it.

I have tested with test patterns using an 8500GT card and as I have otherwise previously detailed in this thread. It looks nicer than SD, it is overscanned and it lacks the promoted definition and it is not displaying HD.

Talkiet seems to have also been fooled the whole time in not realising this - amongst many other trusting consumers!

Talkiet

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#239024 26-Jul-2009 10:41

Hinko:
[snip] Sony (only recently) says this set only displays 625 lines. It does not display accepted HD (Australia possibly excepted) according to Sony's definitions.

[snip]

Talkiet seems to have also been fooled the whole time in not realising this - amongst many other trusting consumers!

Chuckle... Me, fooled the whole time? No.

My TV was a Sony HX32. I used two video cards with it including a GF6600GT and 7600GT. With the default settings, there was some overscan, but this was simply fixed using a combination of the service mode of the TV and the settings in the Nvidia software. Overscan is very obvious when viewing PC output as the menu bar etc are often off the screen unless this is fixed.

HD I define as 720p or 1080(i/p)... My HX32 displayed 720p and 1080i.

As I am sure you are aware, it's not strictly possible to define the exact horizontal resolution of an analogue signal as it's just that... analogue.

I may have missed something you said before - you say that Sony have recently confirmed that this model can only display 625 lines... Can you cite a source for that information?

I'm not interested in reading the manual for your TV - I don't believe that it is required to determine that you just got bitten by the advance of technology.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

#239027 26-Jul-2009 10:50

dickytim: I would like to know what exactly you want Sony to do, I understand that you feel hard done by, and can see how you get to this but is offering you 40% off a new TV not a good guesture? You have had 3 years of use of this TV which needs to be considered in any offer made to you.

The set has delivered 3 years of sub specification display. I was content while using only SD because I understood (mis-placed trust) that it would display 720p and 1080i when I had these sources. When that time came it did not! The word Sham comes to mind as possibly being relevant here.

It is all very well to complain here but you haven't offered a solution to your own problem yet.

What do you want Sony to do?

Did I not say earlier? My apologies.

Simple. I want the TV Fixed. Sony have the technology. Its in warranty period (If that is even relevant here). Its already been paid for. Why should I pay a cent more?

If they cannot fix it then it needs to be replaced with an acceptable alternative to matching specification.

In simple terms that can be summarised as full 720p, full 1080i, 100Hz, equivalent viewing angles and matching display of whites and blacks. There has been debate here about future proofing and whether HDMI should be included to meet that. An alternative replacement is almost certainly going to have HDMI so the point is probably moot. Note that many, even most LCD's do not match this "old" specification.

So far Sony has not indicated any willingness to do either. I am not surprised as it may well create some precedential value for the other set owners. That does not diminish any obligation on Sony.

fahrenheit

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Ultimate Geek

#239031 26-Jul-2009 11:14

The DA32 and HX32 are not HD displays. Only the 'Super fine pitch' chassis (HR36/32) are capable of resolving 1080i line for line (vertically).

Your set will never resolve HD resolutions, with or without HDMI. It is a technological cul-de-sac.

As for Sony's roll in the death of non-HDCP HDTVs, we actually have them to thank for the current amnesty -
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/03/6377.ars

"Sony is the first studio to lay out its plans for how owners of older, analog-only HD sets would be able to watch Blu-ray content. According to Sony Pictures Home Entertainment Senior VP Don Eklund, none of Sony's Blu-ray releases for the "foreseeable future" will use ICT to force downsampling."

The ICT could very well be in use right now had Sony not made this decision which everyone else has followed.

Hinko

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Master Geek

#239032 26-Jul-2009 11:17

Talkiet: My TV was a Sony HX32. I used two video cards with it including a GF6600GT and 7600GT.

Interesting. Perhaps you are not aware that the more recent VDPAU Linux NVIDIA drivers no longer have overscan correction as an option. (Why should they when the problem is in the TV?)

With the default settings, there was some overscan, but this was simply fixed using a combination of the service mode of the TV and the settings in the Nvidia software. Overscan is very obvious when viewing PC output as the menu bar etc are often off the screen unless this is fixed.

Can you explain the bit about the service mode of the TV please?

I'm not interested in reading the manual for your TV - I don't believe that it is required ....

If you cannot back up the suggestion that I did not read it properly and that I missed something then the following proposition is effectively invalidated:

you didn't due your due diligence on the set when you bought it (in 2006?).

How is it Sony's fault you didn't read the specs well enough?

Similarly having a HX32 you will know what was in that manual, much the same! (I have studied a copy)

Chuckle... Me, fooled the whole time? No.

I like that! Are you sure? How sure? Did you run some test patterns? I did. I have access to a HX32, I will run the tests on that also. I understand the tubes are pretty much the same.

HD I define as 720p or 1080(i/p)... [snip]

I may have missed something you said before - you say that Sony have recently confirmed that this model can only display 625 lines... Can you cite a source for that information?

Yes, thank you indeed for asking, its helpful here. Quoting the service email communication from Sony to the retailer to me:

This is a CRT TV 625 lines of resolution.
Even with DRC enabled it is NOT going to be capable of displaying 1920x1080 natively.
If a 1920 x 1080 signal is feed into this TV it will be down converted and displayed as best as is possible.

That probaly clears up some earlier questions asked in the thread.

Are you sure your HX32 did what you thought it did - or could it have done it downscaled to 625 lines?

625 lines is better than SD, its not HD.

Perhaps you now understand why I want the TV fixed.

Hinko

195 posts

Master Geek

#239052 26-Jul-2009 12:51

fahrenheit: The DA32 and HX32 are not HD displays. Only the 'Super fine pitch' chassis (HR36/32) are capable of resolving 1080i line for line (vertically).

Interesting, can you provide further information to confirm this?

Your set will never resolve HD resolutions, with or without HDMI. It is a technological cul-de-sac.

Also interesting, the promotion and product do seem out of sync.

for the current amnesty -
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/03/6377.ars

"Sony is the first studio to lay out its plans for how owners of older, analog-only HD sets would be able to watch Blu-ray content. According to Sony Pictures Home Entertainment Senior VP Don Eklund, none of Sony's Blu-ray releases for the "foreseeable future" will use ICT to force downsampling."

The ICT could very well be in use right now had Sony not made this decision which everyone else has followed.

Suddenly Sony is the White Knight?

Also in your very helpful reference:

Sony's decision to not use the Image Constraint Token for the time being is meant to encourage the adoption of Blu-ray players. Launching a new product that would leave the thousands of analog HDTV owners out in the standard-definition cold could have proven to be a nightmare for Sony and the Blu-ray spec in general.

Yes, someday someone is going to play an ICT Bluray disc through component, get SD and be really disappointed. They may well have a lot to say and look to replace the equipment with alternative branded products. Who would blame them?

Delaying introduction of ICT's reduces the number of people potentially effected when it is rolled out, as some sets will have been replaced...

As for Sony's roll in the death of non-HDCP HDTVs, we actually have them to thank

I am not sure that thanks are due when Sony seem to be trying to postpone and minimise consumer damage (That means Sony's sales) that Sony had a hand in creating!

fahrenheit

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Ultimate Geek

#239053 26-Jul-2009 12:53

Hinko:

fahrenheit: Sony's HD CRTs were made and marketed long before HDCP was even a glint in the eye of content producers and manufacturers.

Really? Can you provide some references and dates to support your proposition please? When do you think these TV's came out? When do you think HDCP came out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection says it was approved in the US 2004, which is much the same time these sets came out. Perhaps fahrenheit might be interested to read the reference kindly provided above by netd, which does not seem to support your proposition. Do you work for a TV industry player?

Interestingly the Sony VPL-HS3 projector manual was completed 30-07-2003, subsequently marketed in New Zealand as HD Ready and included an HDMI interface.

HDMI and HDCP are not mutally exclusive. They tend to go hand-in-hand today, but were not back then.
The Sony HD CRTs in the US had non-HDCP supported HDMI ports and to the best of my knowledge those ports were never firmware upgradeable to support HDCP.
We got RGBHV connections instead.

fahrenheit: HD Ready is a marketing term (and its European at that). Marketing isn't accurate or timeless and sometimes not even the truth.

Hinko:
Ain't that the truth! Does the European reference apply in New Zealand to use of the phrase "HD Ready"?

No, in Europe 'HD Ready' was an agreed standard with specific specifications overseen by a council. If a set deviated from requirements, it wasn't granted 'HD Ready' branding.

Here in NZ, there is no such requirement of standards. 'HD Ready' can be put on anything and everything and noone is held accountable for its use or misuse.

fahrenheit:BTW, I'm a Sony KV-HR36M61 owner.

Hinko: Cool. Same issues apply, do they not?

Indeed. But I been acutely aware of where I stand with it.
My options are to either -
A: Replace the set.
B: Use a device like the HD Fury2 to overcome the lack of HDCP.

Neither choice is a current requirement, but I will most probably take option A when the time comes. I love my set dearly, it was Sony's swansong and looks stunning with 1080i sources like the PS3, HDV camcorders and my 3rd party, non-HDCP hobbled Freeview HD STB.
But even the very best of its day has to give up its crown at some point.

Oblivian

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#239062 26-Jul-2009 13:12

That little tip in the userguide would likely cover them in any instance.

"This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions.." accepts, not displays in full size.

Hell, my shiney 37" LCD 'accepts' them, but the same as an analogue CRT, just doesn't have the physical 1080 dots to display them.
Seems slightly crazy to wish for more than CRT and its limited Dotpitch-resolution(traditionally 480)/information you can fire at/through a piece of glass. Can't fit a double decker bus into an existing garage door the size of a car no matter how you try without some adjustment.

In the end you aren't missing much anyway. Maybe 6 programs a week in 1:1 720 or 1080. Everything else is 480 or 576 (or less) and processed to hell to bring it up to the 720i and 1080i broadcast signal mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron_WEGA has more guts on the tube technology itself.

fahrenheit

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Ultimate Geek

#239069 26-Jul-2009 13:26

Hinko:
fahrenheit: The DA32 and HX32 are not HD displays. Only the 'Super fine pitch' chassis (HR36/32) are capable of resolving 1080i line for line (vertically).

Interesting, can you provide further information to confirm this?

The true dot pitch of the displays isn't documented publicly and there is even confusion within Sony themselves. The answers come from good old hands-on testing.
I have a friend who has an HX-32. Its relatively straightforward for me to see that his display isn't capable of resolving 1080 lines with a simple pattern like the one I have created here.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/faranheit/Beestripes1920.jpg
Each line is a single pixel high alternating black/yellow.

On a true 1080 capable display, you can see/count each individual line. On a display that scales, you will see an approximation (either lines will be missing, or the yellow and black will combine to make a smeared muddy yellow colouring). Try it for yourself if you have a means to get it to your display. You'll need to use a console or device that can feed the jpeg to your TV without scaling (a PC will give you mixed results if not setup correctly).

Annocdotally, I'm told that the DA-32/HX-32 resolve around 800 lines, meaning there is some benefit to feeding them an HD source compared to an SD one, but its by no means close to HD.

My HR36 doesn't do 1920x1080i, it is infact 1440x1080i. Horizontal resolution however is far harder to guage than vertical res.

fahrenheit:As for Sony's roll in the death of non-HDCP HDTVs, we actually have them to thank

I am not sure that thanks are due when Sony seem to be trying to postpone and minimise consumer damage (That means Sony's sales) that Sony had a hand in creating!

Sony are a business and they have their hand in a few different pies. They have vested interests in the software and the technology that delivers it. They have been taught harsh lessons about anti-consumer practices in the past with ROOTKIT fiascos and modchip court cases that haven't gone in their favour. They have become a far more friendly busniess because of it, but they still are out to make money and don't shy away from giving consumers a nudge.

Of course they want you to buy a new TV to replace the obsolete one. But which manufacturer doesn't?

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