Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5


195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239096 26-Jul-2009 15:15
Send private message

Hell, my shiney 37" LCD 'accepts' them, but the same as an analogue CRT, just doesn't have the physical 1080 dots to display them.


What does its manual and promotional material say?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron_WEGA has more guts on the tube technology itself.


You guys are great, thank you for this!

Oblivian: That little tip in the userguide would likely cover them in any instance.

"This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions.." accepts, not displays in full size.


Lets call "This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions.." statement A, which is actually silent on what is seen by the consumer.

Although this seems to be what the TV actually does, it does not say (statement B):

"This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions 720p and 1080i AND cuts off 5% from all four edges AND downscales them to the native resolution of the display which is 625x~1080 to finally display to the users eyes something in the order of 70-80% of the original image."

As it does not further clarify the statement A "This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions.." any further around or anywhere in the material. In my view a reasonable consumer is entitled to conclude statement C that:

"This TV accepts inputs of the following resolutions 720p and 1080i AND displays all the pixels sent"

simply because it naturally follows and there is no clarification to alter that natural conclusion.  Other information in the manual is consistent in both word and also illustration terms.
 
Indeed we have one technically savvy poster emphatically confirming that C: was his understanding!  I also have no reason to believe he is not a gentlemen of sound mind with excellent intelligence nor compromised in any way, indeed he seems to be technically very competent, yet he seemed to honeslty believe he was seeing 1080i.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/FairTrading/Overview.aspx seems relevant here, from where is sourced:

where a business acts unlawfully, its directors, managers, agents and employees, as well as anyone else involved in the offending conduct – such as wholesalers or retailers – can all be held liable. 

A business making claims about products it supplies must remember that its audience will include those who may be gullible, of less than average intelligence or poorly educated.  Some people, by reason of age, language difficulties or lack of education, can be more easily misled than others.


The Fair Trading Act:



  • prohibits people in trade from engaging in misleading or deceptive conduct generally;

  • prohibits certain types of false or misleading representations about employment;

  • prohibits certain types of false or misleading representations about goods or services;

  • prohibits certain types of false or misleading representations or conduct in relation to land;

  • prohibits certain unfair trading practices; and

  • provides for consumer information and product safety standards regulations and unsafe goods notices.


While (I) am not qualified to make determinations, we as consumers need to think about whether the issues I raise here might fall within these parameters and be of interest to those that do make such determinations.


4223 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 239097 26-Jul-2009 15:26
Send private message

Well sir, I'm afraid you and I are going to have to agree to disagree...

I believe the main problem is that you didn't know enough about the limitations of component at the time of purchase, especially those related to the inevitable widespread arrival of HDMI and HDCP etc.

You believe Sony should give you a free TV that's substantially better than the one you bought because you interpreted their marketing material one very specific way.

I'm no huge fan of large corporates in general, but I beleive in this case, Sony have done nothing wrong and you're simply upset that you spent good money on a TV that can't accept current connections.

This is just the risk that early adopters take.

I don't believe you are going to accept that you made a mistake and Sony are in the clear, and I am certainly not going to agree that Sony owe you anything, so just I'll wish you good luck getting a free TV out of them and leave it at that.

Cheers - Neil G




--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


 
 
 
 


752 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 239099 26-Jul-2009 15:37
Send private message

Overscanning isn't limited to CRTs.

Most 720p fixed pixel displays out there are infact 1360x768. Not only does 720p get scaled on these sets, its often overscanned too. That probably accounts for 90% of the HDTVs currently on the market.

I doubt the com com is having its door beaten down because it of.

3407 posts

Uber Geek


  # 239138 26-Jul-2009 18:54
Send private message

Hinko:
Hell, my shiney 37" LCD 'accepts' them, but the same as an analogue CRT, just doesn't have the physical 1080 dots to display them.


What does its manual and promotional material say?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron_WEGA has more guts on the tube technology itself.


You guys are great, thank you for this!



Says pretty much the same. HD-Ready to take 1080 sources. As well of course since its constructed with a fixed size dot panel as apposed to magical light rayguns that guess a bit, manufacturers know exactly how many lines they are able to spit out. And specify it as so.

With 1366 × 768 resolution for true 16:9 aspect ratio, consumers can also enjoy the
latest High Definition Sources, and the addition of a PC input makes the panel
multifunctional for any room. Dual HDMI™ inputs sources provides an advanced digital
interface for sources such as Blu-ray™, XBox, PS3 and HD DVD.


And sure enough as farenheit points out, it overscans on PC inputs. Tiz the norm.

I guess as others have pointed out, good luck with your case.. cause clearly we're all pissing in the wind and flogging a dead fish.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239147 26-Jul-2009 19:40
Send private message

Talkiet: You believe Sony should give you a free TV that's substantially better than the one you bought because you interpreted their marketing material one very specific way.

...Cheers - Neil G


I am sorry Neil, where did I say that?  I only ask Sony fix or match what their material specifies, nothing more.

Thank you for your time commenting.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239158 26-Jul-2009 20:26
Send private message

fahrenheit: The true dot pitch of the displays isn't documented publicly and there is even confusion within Sony themselves.

My experience could be consistent, especially as New Zealand seems to effectively be merely an out reach branch/subsidiary/whatever of Sony Corporation.  It may be relevant that the TV manuals are written by Sony Corporation - and not Sony New Zealand.


The answers come from good old hands-on testing. I have a friend who has an HX-32. Its relatively straightforward for me to see that his display isn't capable of resolving 1080 lines with a simple pattern like the one I have created here.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/faranheit/Beestripes1920.jpg
Each line is a single pixel high alternating black/yellow.

On a true 1080 capable display, you can see/count each individual line. On a display that scales, you will see an approximation (either lines will be missing, or the yellow and black will combine to make a smeared muddy yellow colouring). Try it for yourself if you have a means to get it to your display. You'll need to use a console or device that can feed the jpeg to your TV without scaling (a PC will give you mixed results if not setup correctly).


Thank you for this, displaying this at 100% size using 720p (that is still overscanned) indeed shows just an orange line with no separation of the individual pixel lines. The image scaled down to about 70% before it is seen in its entirety. Checking the image on a 1920x1200 (15" Dell) display it is indeed a number of single pixel lines. I think the other test patterns I referred to earlier are also helpful, although this one could be edited to have concentric rectangles to show and measure overscanning as well.


Annocdotally, I'm told that the DA-32/HX-32 resolve around 800 lines, meaning there is some benefit to feeding them an HD source compared to an SD one, but its by no means close to HD.


Interesting isn't it that Sony Support says 625 lines and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron_WEGA seems to suggest "853x1080i". Take your pick! It might even send 625 lines to a 853 capable tube. As 720p is 1280x720 either way the TV cannot manage 720p HD.


"its by no means close to HD" is an important consistent observation here.

Independently reaching the same conclusion is helpful here, thank you.


My HR36 doesn't do 1920x1080i, it is infact 1440x1080i. Horizontal resolution however is far harder to guage than vertical res.


Interesting, the HR36 TV does not manage 1080i either (1080x1920) and its manual seems silent on this aspect.  The 1440 may well be the horizontal lines referred to in reviews of the US versions with both component and HDMI inputs.

The HR36 manual also makes statements such as "When a 720p or 1080i format signal is received, the picture is always displayed in full mode"  (Not downscaled or overscanned but full)



Sony are a business and they have their hand in a few different pies. They have vested interests in the software and the technology that delivers it. They have been taught harsh lessons about anti-consumer practices in the past with ROOTKIT fiascos and modchip court cases that haven't gone in their favour. They have become a far more friendly busniess because of it, but they still are out to make money and don't shy away from giving consumers a nudge.


Interesting, Sony may not be as squeakly clean as I had originally expected.

Of course they want you to buy a new TV to replace the obsolete one. But which manufacturer doesn't?


Do any manufacturers not implement ICT?  Seems the Movie Industry may have managed to largely capture the TV manufacturers? 

483 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

  # 239166 26-Jul-2009 20:52
Send private message

Wow - theres alot of tripe to read in here... :)

In simple terms your whole argument is relevent to the Consumer Guarantees Act. If you brought your TV from a retailer, you have the choice to either deal with the retailer or the distributor/manufacter. It took me one email to get a brand new LCD TV from Samsung/Radiola NZ, however my issue was a manfacturing/design fault (TV died after 2.5 years). Yours is more an interpretation of specifications.

The CGA is very heavily weighted towards the consumer in NZ. Despite having used it a couple of times I still can't believe how consumer biased it is. Most people have no understanding of this, and therefore don't use it and continue to waste money on extended warranties etc etc etc.

If you believe you have a case (as it appears you believe you do) read up on the CGA, especially the section regarding goods being fit for the intended purpose. Take it up with your retailer. Most are now aware of thier responsibilities and will act accordingly.

However there is also still a fair amount of Caveat Emptor ie let the buyer beware which applies here as well... as others have detailed. My 2 cents say if they choose to fight, you lose... Having said that it costs them alot more to fight than it costs you... 2 days of lawyers will cost them more than giving you a new tv to make you go away.

Either way, you get a much quicker answer than arguing over shades of gray in here...

 
 
 
 


752 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 239172 26-Jul-2009 21:07
Send private message

Hinko:
Annocdotally, I'm told that the DA-32/HX-32 resolve around 800 lines, meaning there is some benefit to feeding them an HD source compared to an SD one, but its by no means close to HD.


Interesting isn't it that Sony Support says 625 lines and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron_WEGA seems to suggest "853x1080i". Take your pick! It might even send 625 lines to a 853 capable tube. As 720p is 1280x720 either way the TV cannot manage 720p HD.


There isn't any consumer-level CRT HDTVs on the market that can resolve 720p. Not even my HR36.
Resolving 720p at high refresh rates on a multiscan PC monitor is fairly trivial as the size is relatively small. But asking a 32"+ display to scan the raster 60 times a second at 1280x720 resolution is a big ask.
So how do they get around it? They cheat. The display will do one of two things (manufacturer dependant). Either scale 720p to 1080i or downscale to 540p. The Sonys do the latter. This can also be easily observed with the right tests.
The benefit to downscaling to 540p is that 60fps sources are retained (very important for video games/sporting events shot at 60fps).

With sets that choose to scale to 1080i, all of the 720p resolution is kept but, because it has to be converted to an interlaced format, frame rate is effectively halved. In the time that 720p can resolve 60 full frames, 1080i can only render 30 full frames.

There are of course some HD CRTs that will not accept a 720p signal at all.

The confusing thing with 540p is that it is not a selectable resolution. You cannot feed the set a 540p source and get back 540p. It exists only as an intermediary for when 720p is fed to the set.
Its not documented and lets face it, this is an extremely complex topic from a technical point of view, let alone a marketing one.
But like all things in the video world, it can't escape being put to the test.


The HR36 manual also makes statements such as "When a 720p or 1080i format signal is received, the picture is always displayed in full mode"  (Not downscaled or overscanned but full)


1080i is not downscaled, but it most certainly is overscanned. 720p is both downscaled and overscanned.
'FULL' is merely a term Sony use to mean that the entire raster area is used (unlike 4:3 which has pillar boxing on each side). What it doesn't convey is how many lines of that raster area are unique and how many are scaled.


Of course they want you to buy a new TV to replace the obsolete one. But which manufacturer doesn't?


Do any manufacturers not implement ICT?  Seems the Movie Industry may have managed to largely capture the TV manufacturers? 


The Imagine Constraint Token is software based. The manufacturers make the hardware to HDCP spec, what the software produces do with ICT is entirely out of their hands.

But there is no question that both benefit. The studios get to protect their wares and the manufactuer's get to sell their hardware all over again to people who only just bought their gear less than 5 years ago.
Its the ultimate 69'er.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239178 26-Jul-2009 21:17
Send private message

RustyGonad: Wow - theres alot ....you get a much quicker answer than arguing over shades of gray in here...


While I am sure you are correct I have given Sony and the retailer every reasonable opportunity to put it right.  I feel they have not responded sufficiently for me and given the information I have assembled I want other interested people to have the relevant information more readily at their finger tips to consider their own situation. 

Certainly this thread has helped me test and understand the issues more, which is also appreciated, I had no idea what experience others could contribute.  Thank you to you too!

In some respects the thread might have been better named however geekzone did not seem to have a heading catering for TV's.... 

Certified Freeview HD through Component to a HD TV seems to remain an oxymoron in New Zealand.



195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239202 26-Jul-2009 22:40
Send private message

fahrenheit: There isn't any consumer-level CRT HDTVs on the market that can resolve 720p. Not even my HR36.  Resolving 720p at high refresh rates on a multiscan PC monitor is fairly trivial as the size is relatively small. But asking a 32"+ display to scan the raster 60 times a second at 1280x720 resolution is a big ask.

So how do they get around it? They cheat. The display will do one of two things (manufacturer dependant). Either scale 720p to 1080i or downscale to 540p. The Sonys do the latter. This can also be easily observed with the right tests.
The benefit to downscaling to 540p is that 60fps sources are retained (very important for video games/sporting events shot at 60fps).

With sets that choose to scale to 1080i, all of the 720p resolution is kept but, because it has to be converted to an interlaced format, frame rate is effectively halved. In the time that 720p can resolve 60 full frames, 1080i can only render 30 full frames.

There are of course some HD CRTs that will not accept a 720p signal at all.

The confusing thing with 540p is that it is not a selectable resolution. You cannot feed the set a 540p source and get back 540p. It exists only as an intermediary for when 720p is fed to the set.
Its not documented and lets face it, this is an extremely complex topic from a technical point of view, let alone a marketing one.
But like all things in the video world, it can't escape being put to the test.

...

1080i is not downscaled, but it most certainly is overscanned. 720p is both downscaled and overscanned.
'FULL' is merely a term Sony use to mean that the entire raster area is used (unlike 4:3 which has pillar boxing on each side). What it doesn't convey is how many lines of that raster area are unique and how many are scaled.



Man alive, this is getting worst than I had imagined!  This is getting REALLY INTERESTING!

Isn't NZ SD 576i  (576 H lines)?

Are you suggesting 720p HD is downscaled to be seen as 540p (540 H lines), that is a lower effective resolution than SD?  (How does the overscan relate to this? Are 540 lines displayed - or {540 - (2 x 5%)}, I presume it is the former however nothing is going to surprise me now!)

Can you provide further information or direction how to prove this information?

752 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 239212 26-Jul-2009 23:33
Send private message

Hinko:

Isn't NZ SD 576i  (576 H lines)?

Are you suggesting 720p HD is downscaled to be seen as 540p (540 H lines), that is a lower effective resolution than SD?  (How does the overscan relate to this? Are 540 lines displayed - or {540 - (2 x 5%)}, I presume it is the former however nothing is going to surprise me now!)

Can you provide further information or direction how to prove this information?


SD is interlaced and 540p is of course progressive. Big perceptual difference.
Overscan is a built-in safeguard so that you don't see blanking or other anomolies at the end of the raster. It does use some of the available resolution unfortunately.

Proving the 540p scaling is difficult without a set that can display the bumble-bee image I posted earlier, line for line. My set can, so you'd think that a 720p variant of that pattern would be easy? Not so. Because of the  downscaling to 540p, this 720p sample looks just the same on my set as that 1080i sample looks on yours. Muddy.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/faranheit/Beestripes1280.jpg

Hawkes Bay
8477 posts

Uber Geek

Mod Emeritus
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 239258 27-Jul-2009 09:27
Send private message

There is also another issue that interests me, the green aspects.  These tube TV's that were made should be used for their working life, and not dumped into landfills prematurely because of premature obsolence designed by their manufacturers.  Tubes are known to work for over 60 years. In 60 years time we may well be much better at recycling these.

So combine this with your view on future proof, and you expect Sony to give you a new TV for free everytime a standard emerges that your TV cant handle, for the next 60 years?

P.S. Tubes may work for 60 years, how about, power switches, transformers and other components?

How many 60 year old televisions have you got at the moment?







Hawkes Bay
8477 posts

Uber Geek

Mod Emeritus
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 239260 27-Jul-2009 09:30
Send private message

Hinko: Certified Freeview HD through Component to a HD TV seems to remain an oxymoron in New Zealand.

It's not an oxymoron, it's just a fact that on a Freeview Certified box, you need to use HDMI. This is NOT Sonys fault, or Sonys responsibility, nor is it Freeviews.

The standards are there, Freeview COULD support HD over component if they chose to, but they don't.

Sucks for you, but not much you can do about it.









195 posts

Master Geek


  # 239264 27-Jul-2009 09:38
Send private message

tonyhughes: So combine this with your view on future proof, and you expect Sony to give you a new TV for free everytime a standard emerges that your TV cant handle, for the next 60 years?


Did I say that?  No.

P.S. Tubes may work for 60 years, how about, power switches, transformers and other components?


Who knows, maybe they need maintenance, the point is sets are known to work for many years and now these things exist their working life should not be particularly discouraged, and certainly by their own manufacturers who appear to have designed in measures designed to reduce the quality of the consumer experience of these sets.  I am referring to things like ICT.  Do you not have any interest in the planet you live on?

How many 60 year old televisions have you got at the moment?


None.  But then I am not 80 yet.  I recently gave away one that was about 25 years old, untouched by a serviceman and working as well as the day it was bought. 

2514 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  # 239360 27-Jul-2009 15:01
Send private message

what is going to happen to your old TV if Sony give you a new one?

It will be disposed of, now you are the environmental vandal by causing the premature disposal of a perfectly working TV.

Please refrain from making BS references to environmental issues when you don't actually give a toss, if you did you'd "take one for the team" and keep this TV for the sake of the environment.

This thread is getting rediculous, no-one agrees with you so take it to the small claims tribunal or mediation, stop bleeting on the internet and do it properly.

From a work mate who worked for Sony marketing they will usually give you a TV to shut you up and move you along, deal with it properly and you might get lucky, no-one here is going to give you your free TV

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Chorus to launch Hyperfibre service
Posted 18-Nov-2019 15:00


Microsoft launches first Experience Center worldwide for Asia Pacific in Singapore
Posted 13-Nov-2019 13:08


Disney+ comes to LG Smart TVs
Posted 13-Nov-2019 12:55


Spark launches new wireless broadband "Unplan Metro"
Posted 11-Nov-2019 08:19


Malwarebytes overhauls flagship product with new UI, faster engine and lighter footprint
Posted 6-Nov-2019 11:48


CarbonClick launches into Digital Marketplaces
Posted 6-Nov-2019 11:42


Kordia offers Microsoft Azure Peering Service
Posted 6-Nov-2019 11:41


Spark 5G live on Auckland Harbour for Emirates Team New Zealand
Posted 4-Nov-2019 17:30


BNZ and Vodafone partner to boost NZ Tech for SME
Posted 31-Oct-2019 17:14


Nokia 7.2 available in New Zealand
Posted 31-Oct-2019 16:24


2talk launches Microsoft Teams Direct Routing product
Posted 29-Oct-2019 10:35


New Breast Cancer Foundation app puts power in Kiwi women's hands
Posted 25-Oct-2019 16:13


OPPO Reno2 Series lands, alongside hybrid noise-cancelling Wireless Headphones
Posted 24-Oct-2019 15:32


Waikato Data Scientists awarded $13 million from the Government
Posted 24-Oct-2019 15:27


D-Link launches Wave 2 Unified Access Points
Posted 24-Oct-2019 15:07



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.