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Topic # 52719 7-Dec-2009 09:44
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Hybird TV, Sky face off

Hybrid Television may cross swords with Sky Television by including Prime's programme listings on digital video recorder TiVo's electronic programme guide without the permission of Sky.

Chief executive Robbee Minicola says she intends to seek further information from Sky on why it will not allow its listings to be shown on TiVo and could then seek legal advice before making a decision.

....

from http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/3130811/Hybird-TV-Sky-face-off



interesting.  I hope they do it. I don't see why EPG should be able to be copyrighted.  All it is is a show name and a time.

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  Reply # 279915 7-Dec-2009 10:22
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Really only sky are the loosers, if no EPG then people wont watch.  Apart from the rugby fans unwilling to pay sky for Sky Sport access it wont affect too many people.

There are some good shows on there, but you can get listings from other sources., but for mostly of the public, if you don't know what's on there, you wont watch the channel.  Meaning it will loose ad revenue.

I think these tv companies need to get over themselves, EPG data shouldn't copywrited, people shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get access to the data. It's in their best interested to display it.

Also reading that article, are there really people that wouldn't buy a Tivo just because there are no prime listings?  I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,




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  Reply # 279935 7-Dec-2009 11:11
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davidcole: Really only sky are the loosers, if no EPG then people wont watch.  Apart from the rugby fans unwilling to pay sky for Sky Sport access it wont affect too many people.


Yep. Saturday evening I looked at the EPG, couldn't see anything for Prime - and couldn't be bothered to either checking the website or changing the channel to check what was on.

How did Sky figured out that not promoting their EPG will bring more viewers is a mystery...




 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 279950 7-Dec-2009 11:51
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Why don't they just get off their lazy RS's and develop a solution using that so called internationally accepted MHEG-5 standard that so many people on here harp on about. I thought it was supposed to be the future of interactive television?

Wonder if they would have a solution if Freeview used EIT?

Last time I checked good business practice involved negotiating commercial contracts, product features and capability before you release a product.

Trying to negotiate through the press is somewhat strange, and maybe some of the reasons Tivo are on a downward slide internationally.

But then again - who would harp on about a new Video on Demand service when you don't have any content contracts tied up... Nah - can't be must be all the big bad enemies fault ehhh...

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  Reply # 279953 7-Dec-2009 12:02
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davidcole: Really only sky are the loosers, if no EPG then people wont watch.  Apart from the rugby fans unwilling to pay sky for Sky Sport access it wont affect too many people.

There are some good shows on there, but you can get listings from other sources., but for mostly of the public, if you don't know what's on there, you wont watch the channel.  Meaning it will loose ad revenue.

I think these tv companies need to get over themselves, EPG data shouldn't copywrited, people shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get access to the data. It's in their best interested to display it.

Also reading that article, are there really people that wouldn't buy a Tivo just because there are no prime listings?  I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,


The EPG data is critical on a system like Tivo, the main feature of the unit is being able to record all your favourite shows and watch them when you want (and fast forward the ads) without the epg recording shows is no different to using a vcr (manually having to put in the rec times) and then you end up with a bunch of recordings with no names.

The best option is to buy a HTPC there are plenty on trademe etc (similar cost but so many more options ie series link, managing recordings through the internet, being able to record multiple channels & watch whatever channel you want and most important AD SKIP :)
and you can just set them up to download a 7 day epg for all channels off the internet for free.

FREE EPG FOR EVERYONE (why it is copywrited is stupid, do they not want people to watch)

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  Reply # 279955 7-Dec-2009 12:16
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RustyGonad: Why don't they just get off their lazy RS's and develop a solution using that so called internationally accepted MHEG-5 standard that so many people on here harp on about. I thought it was supposed to be the future of interactive television?

Wonder if they would have a solution if Freeview used EIT?

Last time I checked good business practice involved negotiating commercial contracts, product features and capability before you release a product.

Trying to negotiate through the press is somewhat strange, and maybe some of the reasons Tivo are on a downward slide internationally.

But then again - who would harp on about a new Video on Demand service when you don't have any content contracts tied up... Nah - can't be must be all the big bad enemies fault ehhh...


The Tivo model is to use interactive EPG's rather than an MHEG5/EIT EPG. This allows Tivo to customise the EPG to suit their product and deliver more options to the end user.

Supporting MHEG5/EIT wouldn't fix the issue.

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  Reply # 279956 7-Dec-2009 12:29
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Biggles69:
davidcole: Really only sky are the loosers, if no EPG then people wont watch.  Apart from the rugby fans unwilling to pay sky for Sky Sport access it wont affect too many people.

There are some good shows on there, but you can get listings from other sources., but for mostly of the public, if you don't know what's on there, you wont watch the channel.  Meaning it will loose ad revenue.

I think these tv companies need to get over themselves, EPG data shouldn't copywrited, people shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get access to the data. It's in their best interested to display it.

Also reading that article, are there really people that wouldn't buy a Tivo just because there are no prime listings?  I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,


The EPG data is critical on a system like Tivo, the main feature of the unit is being able to record all your favourite shows and watch them when you want (and fast forward the ads) without the epg recording shows is no different to using a vcr (manually having to put in the rec times) and then you end up with a bunch of recordings with no names.

The best option is to buy a HTPC there are plenty on trademe etc (similar cost but so many more options ie series link, managing recordings through the internet, being able to record multiple channels & watch whatever channel you want and most important AD SKIP :)
and you can just set them up to download a 7 day epg for all channels off the internet for free.

FREE EPG FOR EVERYONE (why it is copywrited is stupid, do they not want people to watch)


Yes but given that it's only one channel, do you honestly believe that the lack of EPG for one channel is going to make the whole Tivo business model collapse?

Yes I definitely agree that EPG is vitally important to these PVR products.  Otherwise all you have is a glorified video recorder using the old time based recording.  Not being able to record a program with same same on any channel on any day.

My point though, is lack of Prime EPG going to stop anyone from buying the tivo device?  I don't think so, I just think they wont watch sky.




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  Reply # 279957 7-Dec-2009 12:29
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davidcole:  ... if no EPG then people wont watch ... I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,

One post but two opposite points of view - and actually that's quite understandable. There are two distinct groups of people; those who have been using digital TV for a time and realise that the EPG lies at the centre of most services (these people are a relatively small, but growing minority) and the majority of NZ TV viewers who currently see an EPG as something equivalent to TV listings in a newspaper or perhaps on Teletext.

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  Reply # 279961 7-Dec-2009 12:37
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Deev8:
davidcole:  ... if no EPG then people wont watch ... I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,

One post but two opposite points of view - and actually that's quite understandable. There are two distinct groups of people; those who have been using digital TV for a time and realise that the EPG lies at the centre of most services (these people are a relatively small, but growing minority) and the majority of NZ TV viewers who currently see an EPG as something equivalent to TV listings in a newspaper or perhaps on Teletext.


Most people in NZ don't have a PVR so don't realise how cool an EPG is. People who are in this boat aren't going to not buy a Tivo just because the Prime EPG isn't available.

Tivo have launched a $900 product into the marketplace at a time where consumer spending isn't fantastic. They also chose to make the product available only at Telecom stores was the biggest single failure of their whole launch and IMHO is the prime reason Tivo sales are poor. The other reason was the Telecom deal that has confused so many people they believe Telecom broadband is required to use the service.

People don't associate Telecom stores as a place to buy home entertainment equipment, no amount of marketing is going to change that. Until Tivo is available from DSE/Noel Leeming/TWH/Harvey Norman it's only going to be a niche product.





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  Reply # 279968 7-Dec-2009 12:52
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snap sbiddle. If they really want to get out there all of DSE, Hardly Normal, Bond and Bond, 100% etc etc should be trying to sell you a TIVO.

:edit: speeling

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  Reply # 279978 7-Dec-2009 13:15
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sbiddle:
RustyGonad: Why don't they just get off their lazy RS's and develop a solution using that so called internationally accepted MHEG-5 standard that so many people on here harp on about. I thought it was supposed to be the future of interactive television?

Wonder if they would have a solution if Freeview used EIT?

Last time I checked good business practice involved negotiating commercial contracts, product features and capability before you release a product.

Trying to negotiate through the press is somewhat strange, and maybe some of the reasons Tivo are on a downward slide internationally.

But then again - who would harp on about a new Video on Demand service when you don't have any content contracts tied up... Nah - can't be must be all the big bad enemies fault ehhh...


The Tivo model is to use interactive EPG's rather than an MHEG5/EIT EPG. This allows Tivo to customise the EPG to suit their product and deliver more options to the end user.

Supporting MHEG5/EIT wouldn't fix the issue.


I just typed another reply but the naughty filter got it...

So to quote yourself "Companies should stop launching products into the marketplace that don't support the standards NZ uses. MHEG5 specs are available and plenty of companies have no issues building this into their products. "

And yet you say its ok for Tivo to do nothing.

They could easily apply a local customisation matrix to the MHEG sourced EPG data if they wanted to.

This however would cost money in the form of software development.  This costs alot more than a press release b i t c h i n at Sky - especially when its got some deep seated hatred from the government funded broadcaster behind it.

Tivo don't have an exclusive on customising guide content.  Some of us do it every day at home.  Customisation doesn't have to be done centrally.

Not being able to do something and not fitting a business model are distinctly different.



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  Reply # 279979 7-Dec-2009 13:17
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Deev8:
davidcole:  ... if no EPG then people wont watch ... I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,

One post but two opposite points of view - and actually that's quite understandable. There are two distinct groups of people; those who have been using digital TV for a time and realise that the EPG lies at the centre of most services (these people are a relatively small, but growing minority) and the majority of NZ TV viewers who currently see an EPG as something equivalent to TV listings in a newspaper or perhaps on Teletext.


Hmm yes.  Two distinct thoughts running through my post there.  But I glad you see the point.  Personally I'm in the first camp, if no epg I just don't watch, since I've been running a PVR for the past 2 - 3 years now i certainly know the value of good epg.




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  Reply # 279989 7-Dec-2009 13:38
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RustyGonad
I just typed another reply but the naughty filter got it...

So to quote yourself "Companies should stop launching products into the marketplace that don't support the standards NZ uses. MHEG5 specs are available and plenty of companies have no issues building this into their products. "

And yet you say its ok for Tivo to do nothing.

They could easily apply a local customisation matrix to the MHEG sourced EPG data if they wanted to.

This however would cost money in the form of software development.  This costs alot more than a press release b i t c h i n at Sky - especially when its got some deep seated hatred from the government funded broadcaster behind it.

Tivo don't have an exclusive on customising guide content.  Some of us do it every day at home.  Customisation doesn't have to be done centrally.

Not being able to do something and not fitting a business model are distinctly different.




I consider a company launching a product with no MHEG5 support and no EPG to be very different to a company launching a product like Tivo that offers an EPG but doesn't use MHEG5.

Tivo has never used OTA EPG's - it was originally a modem before they moved to internet based delivery. This is their business model.

MHEG5 content can't be customised to do what Tivo does, their recommend show downloads is a data matching process, you can't easily do the same thing trying to match data locally. Show names aren't always the same for example - manually matching this data guarantees it will be far more accurate.

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  Reply # 279993 7-Dec-2009 14:02
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sbiddle:
RustyGonad
I just typed another reply but the naughty filter got it...

So to quote yourself "Companies should stop launching products into the marketplace that don't support the standards NZ uses. MHEG5 specs are available and plenty of companies have no issues building this into their products. "

And yet you say its ok for Tivo to do nothing.

They could easily apply a local customisation matrix to the MHEG sourced EPG data if they wanted to.

This however would cost money in the form of software development.  This costs alot more than a press release b i t c h i n at Sky - especially when its got some deep seated hatred from the government funded broadcaster behind it.

Tivo don't have an exclusive on customising guide content.  Some of us do it every day at home.  Customisation doesn't have to be done centrally.

Not being able to do something and not fitting a business model are distinctly different.




I consider a company launching a product with no MHEG5 support and no EPG to be very different to a company launching a product like Tivo that offers an EPG but doesn't use MHEG5.

Tivo has never used OTA EPG's - it was originally a modem before they moved to internet based delivery. This is their business model.

MHEG5 content can't be customised to do what Tivo does, their recommend show downloads is a data matching process, you can't easily do the same thing trying to match data locally. Show names aren't always the same for example - manually matching this data guarantees it will be far more accurate.


I understand Tivo's business model - So your saying the MHEG can't be customised and yet it will be exactly the same data they receive from Sky directly, if they manage to get commercial approval. 

That is Sky will send them the same data they send to Freeview, in its uncustomised form.  Title mistmatches, lack of genres etc etc etc. 

Tivo then apply their title normalisation, genre info, series info (if they want) etc etc etc.  Before sending this out to customers boxes.  This step could easily occur on the box, but like I've already said would require a change in their business model and some software development. 

Fact is logistically it can be easily done - ON THE BOX.

Tivo isn't magic, it is in fact behind many of its competitors in terms of funtionality.  Its business model hasn't moved and it well needs to.  That is one reason why its not selling internationally.

What Tivo are in fact saying is we don't want to modify our business model, because it will cost us money to do so.  We want to develop a commercial relationship via Newspaper based contract discussions, because that is the way we do business.  Hopefully Sky will read our press releases and be pressured into picking up the phone, and talking to us, because we don't like talking to them.  Same with that Maori station as well.   Used to be a time when commercial bickering stayed behind closed doors where it belongs.

The other main reason its not selling it because it doesn't support Sky.  Unfortunately this has more to do with basic demographics than not being in Noel Lemmings.   Remember its biggest competitor is only available directly from Sky, and is doing quite well.

Not supporting Sky takes out roughly half of New Zealand households as prospective customers, which you could argue a strong case, are the demographic with the disposable income to purchase a $900 PVR.

Unfortunately this means they end up with a very small target market - those who don't have Sky, and who have $900 to waste on a PVR, knowing it doesn't support Sky, couple this to a video on demand service which doesn't have any movies and thats why its not selling.









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  Reply # 280007 7-Dec-2009 14:45
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A couple of points.

I am running PlayTV on the PS3 and it doesn't have a comprehensive epg. But because the platform is so cool for recording and playback of Freeview I continue to use it and just manually enter the programmes I want to record.

I haven't looked at the Tivo but assuming there is no epg data for Prime or whatever, does that mean you can't even manually record channels? That would be in inhibitor to be see.

As for Tivo and Telecom broadband, I thought that if were streaming shows over broadband on the Tivo, only Telecom subscribers would not incur data charges but my awareness in this area is somewhat sketchy.




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  Reply # 280026 7-Dec-2009 15:46
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My point though, is lack of Prime EPG going to stop anyone from buying the tivo device?  I don't think so, I just think they wont watch sky.


It stopped me. That and the $920 price point meant that I bought a MagicTV for $700.

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