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600 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 321420 21-Apr-2010 19:02
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wiredr: 

jpollock   do you know something we all dont . how can a tv which has no hd video  outputs , which is all of them , be able to invalidate drm reqirements  ? to my knowledge tv's with usb and network connections are only inputs not outputs,


Sure, here goes...

Statement: The presence of TVs with FreeView invalidates DRM.

Proof:

Given:
1) Currently FreeView is unencrypted.
2) My TV, a Panasonic, was sold as having a certified FreeView tuner.
3) My TV also doesn't have a smart card slot, therefore it cannot support encryption.
4) DVB-T tuners which allow unrestricted recording and transfer are currently available.

Therefore:
1) In order to lock out those DVB-T tuners from working, encryption must be enabled
    and smart cards distributed to everyone with an existing FreeView certified tuner.
2) Since not all certified devices will support the encryption - ref: my TV),
    implementing encryption will make my TV (as well as most existing FreeView tuners) worthless.
3) Therefore, they cannot implement encryption without killing their installed base.
4) Therefore, they won't implement encryption.
5) Therefore, they can't lock out the devices which already allow unrestricted recording. 
4) Therefore, the DRM requirement on certified devices serves no purpose.

The only thing that DRM restrictions on FreeView recorded content will do is lower the perceived value of certified DVRs, pushing people to other devices.




203 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 321423 21-Apr-2010 19:19
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jpollock:
wiredr: 

jpollock   do you know something we all dont . how can a tv which has no hd video  outputs , which is all of them , be able to invalidate drm reqirements  ? to my knowledge tv's with usb and network connections are only inputs not outputs,


Sure, here goes...

Statement: The presence of TVs with FreeView invalidates DRM.

Proof:

Given:
1) Currently FreeView is unencrypted.
2) My TV, a Panasonic, was sold as having a certified FreeView tuner.
3) My TV also doesn't have a smart card slot, therefore it cannot support encryption.
4) DVB-T tuners which allow unrestricted recording and transfer are currently available.

Therefore:
1) In order to lock out those DVB-T tuners from working, encryption must be enabled
    and smart cards distributed to everyone with an existing FreeView certified tuner.
2) Since not all certified devices will support the encryption - ref: my TV),
    implementing encryption will make my TV (as well as most existing FreeView tuners) worthless.
3) Therefore, they cannot implement encryption without killing their installed base.
4) Therefore, they won't implement encryption.
5) Therefore, they can't lock out the devices which already allow unrestricted recording. 
4) Therefore, the DRM requirement on certified devices serves no purpose.

The only thing that DRM restrictions on FreeView recorded content will do is lower the perceived value of certified DVRs, pushing people to other devices.


jpollock

drm is in the content so is not altered by the delivery method

the change in stance by freview to allow tranfering of recorded content to  other media only effects dtr's not tv's . currently there are only a couple of tv's capable of recording internally. encryption has nothiong to do with the controll of drm .composite video from a dvt tuner still contains drm




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 321488 21-Apr-2010 22:30
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wiredr

jpollock

drm is in the content so is not altered by the delivery method

the change in stance by freview to allow tranfering of recorded content to  other media only effects dtr's not tv's . currently there are only a couple of tv's capable of recording internally. encryption has nothiong to do with the controll of drm .composite video from a dvt tuner still contains drm



First off, DRM is always tightly linked to the delivery method.  That's why they used Macrovision on VHS tapes, and encryption and Macrovision on DVDs, and encryption on Sky feeds.

Let's try this again.

DRM can't be reliably implemented just as a flag on the stream and a behaviour on an agreed device.  There are already plenty of devices out there which are more than willing to ignore that flag.  Devices which ignore DRM are simply worth more to consumers.

So, DRM is pretty much always implemented using encryption of one sort or another.  That's how Sky, TelstraClear, DVDs, and BluRay all implement DRM.  You encrypt it and then _only_ provide the decryption key to devices you trust.

That's such an important piece of information, it's worth repeating:

Without encryption there is absolutely no point in implementing DRM.  (Even with encryption, there's not much point, but that's another discussion)

However, in order to add encryption to a stream (which is supported and allowed by the DVB-T standard), the receivers need to support it.  If you are in the process of building out your installed base, causing that installed base to become obsolete overnight is "a bad thing".  Can you imagine how pissed off everyone would be to find out that their TV sets would need replacing, or that their $500 external tuners were now really, really bad door stops?

Yeah, they'd all stop using FreeView and sign up to Sky.  Good for Sky, bad for FreeView.

So, FreeView isn't going to add encryption, and as we've seen, DRM without encryption serves no purpose.  It's merely a tax on people who don't feel like going down to DSE and paying $129 ($72 at ascent) for a USB tuner.

So, don't settle for a DVR with DRM, you don't need to. 




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Master Geek


  Reply # 321508 22-Apr-2010 00:58
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so here is a quote from sbidle on another topic the tivo

It can obviously pick up all Freeview|HD programming but will never be approved since it doesn't support MHEG5 and follow the DRM restrictions that Fereeview place on devices wanting approval.

so it follows that ANY dvb-t device that uses mheg5 epg has drm control. so where is the encryption ?

as i see it nothing will change except that freeview aproved stb pvr's will be able to transfer content from onboard hdd to external storage . how does that make devices with dvb-t tuners and no hdd ( ie tv sets ) redundant ?

what it means to the consumer is this .

MHEG5 epg = record to external storage  with drm and in hd

eit or other   epg = record to external storage but you dont have 8 day epg ie panasonic ,  tivo , htpc and dreamcast boxes .


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  Reply # 321524 22-Apr-2010 07:04
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wiredr: so here is a quote from sbidle on another topic the tivo

It can obviously pick up all Freeview|HD programming but will never be approved since it doesn't support MHEG5 and follow the DRM restrictions that Fereeview place on devices wanting approval.

so it follows that ANY dvb-t device that uses mheg5 epg has drm control. so where is the encryption ?

as i see it nothing will change except that freeview aproved stb pvr's will be able to transfer content from onboard hdd to external storage . how does that make devices with dvb-t tuners and no hdd ( ie tv sets ) redundant ?

what it means to the consumer is this .

MHEG5 epg = record to external storage  with drm and in hd

eit or other   epg = record to external storage but you dont have 8 day epg ie panasonic ,  tivo , htpc and dreamcast boxes .



There is a difference here between DRM and encryption. They are not the same thing.

Sky transmit an encrypted signal and also transmit DRM signals in the form of enabling or disabling the ICT flag in some of their HD content. This enables some HD content to be viewed over component but prevents many other HD channels from being viewed via component. This is totally seperate from their encryption.

Freeview chose not to bother with the ICT flag (but could start in the future) and instead imposed a restriction on STB manufacturers that any box that was Freeview certified had to restrict all HD content so it could not be viewed via component and only via a digital path (HDMI).

I'm also a bit lost over yout MHEG5 comments. You're seem to be think MHEG5 has some relationship with DRM and HD as well. There is none. MHEG5 is merely a middleware programming language primararily for interactive content.

There is nothing stopping a manufacturer selling a DVB-T box with full MHEG5 support that enables external recording or transfer that ignores the Freeview requirement of forcing downscaling on component.

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Master Geek


  Reply # 322216 23-Apr-2010 21:07
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drm is not device dependant , its control of the ICT flag is via software broadcast along with the video stream , in freeview' s case this is via MHEG 5 software . this is why Tivo have their own epg not MHEG 5 and can transfer recordings to external storage . turning the ICT flag on does not effect live viewing only the transfer of the video to another device .

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  Reply # 322288 24-Apr-2010 06:57
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wiredr: drm is not device dependant , its control of the ICT flag is via software broadcast along with the video stream , in freeview' s case this is via MHEG 5 software . this is why Tivo have their own epg not MHEG 5 and can transfer recordings to external storage . turning the ICT flag on does not effect live viewing only the transfer of the video to another device .


ICT has nothing to do with video transfer, it's only purpose is to force downsampling of either live or prerecorded material. Freeview do not technically use ICT - it is technically only part of the AACS, but DVB can use something similar as part of the DVB CPCM standard which is what Freeview are using in the UK to protect HD content on their new DVB-T2 platform.

ICT is most common on Blu Ray media where at disabled by default on most discs which is why you can use component out to view HD content. Originally the Blu Ray and HD-DVD specs said that ICT had to be anabled by default so that HD content could only be viewed using HDMI. Due to the large number of HDTV's in the USA with no HDMI/HDCP support it was decided to allow component output with an expected date around 2012 where ICT would be enabled. There has been no word however in the last few years as to whether or not this will infact happen.





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Master Geek


  Reply # 322290 24-Apr-2010 08:08
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sbidle ,
so how does your last post address the issue  raised by jpollock post 321488 that the act of turning on the ict flag will make curent tv,s and dvb-t stb's redundant . ?

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  Reply # 322293 24-Apr-2010 08:33
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wiredr: sbidle ,
so how does your last post address the issue  raised by jpollock post 321488 that the act of turning on the ict flag will make curent tv,s and dvb-t stb's redundant . ?


That's now what I interpreted from his message. There is nothing to "turn on", Freeview have DRM in the form of downscaling already. DRM does not mean encryption.



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 322294 24-Apr-2010 08:41
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wiredr: sbidle ,
so how does your last post address the issue  raised by jpollock post 321488 that the act of turning on the ict flag will make curent tv,s and dvb-t stb's redundant . ?


I guess I left the word "effective" from my statement in the proof.  The ICT flag is most certainly not effective DRM.

The proof applies and is correct.  They looked at 1, came to the conclusion in 2, and followed through to the end.

As stated in my proof, the presence of TVs and other certified devices which are unable to support encrypted DVB-T streams invalidates the use of effective DRM, meaning that the DRM requirements on certified devices have no purpose and merely lower the perceived value of approved devices.




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Master Geek
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  Reply # 322674 25-Apr-2010 15:06
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If you guys want to record freeview HD and be able to transfer it to different devices, etc, you should try mythtv. A couple of dvb-t tuners, a big hard drive and an nvidia 8xxx, 9xxx or 2xx video card and you're done.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 334782 25-May-2010 21:44
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But they are correct about the whole thing, each in their own area:

  1. Freeview can not encrypt the service because it would stop all the existing customers from receiving the service on their TVs and receivers.


  2. And yes the DRM flag will still not affect the "unapproved" receivers. It will add something good to the "approved" PVRs and maybe the basic HD receivers if implemented properly.

    As pointed out this flagging is not used currently, and instead "approved" models of the PVRs must not allow any transfer of files. When the flag is used, some file removal will be allowed.

    "Copy once" files will only be allowed in a manner that still incorporates DRM flags that prevent the copy from being copied. So while everyone is cheering the news of content being able to be removed from the PVRs, we hve yet to see exactly how you can use the "copy once" content as it will still have some form of DRM on it.

    But the ability to remove and use any SD or "copy freely" content will be great.


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