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  Reply # 309741 22-Mar-2010 11:01
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ObidiahSlope: Here is a newspaper item regarding pending court action.

The outcome of this case is likely to have a great deal of influence as to whether Sky TV is correct in its assertion that third parties providing programming information without its permission are breaking copyright.

Item about court action on www.stuff.co.nz


Cool. I hope the case is handled sensibly. I recently read James Boyle's book on copyright, The Public Domain, which includes a very interesting discussion of ownership of facts and databases, and the differences between US and European handling of the issue. The US does not protect databases, while the EU does, but strangely enough it seems that more new databases are created in the US than in Europe, despite the apparent lack of "incentive".

It's a very good book, and it's free to download:
http://www.thepublicdomain.org/

 

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Geek


  Reply # 309745 22-Mar-2010 11:16
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reven: an rss feed replaces the webservice automatic update i use to host.

you can point it to an rss feed that lists configuration file updates to automatically update the configuration file if a change occurs.

currently there are now rss feeds online, but i've put an example of what a rss feed needs to look like on the wiki on the google code page.

and then you just need to edit the xmltvnz.exe.config file and set the rssfeed url in there.



fr3ak: If you recognise my username from another website, yes I'm the same one. I'd prefer if you don't post any guesses or other identifying info just to keep the game interesting. I am hosting the xmlTVNZMarkers.xml file and have setup an rss feed for it at xmltvnz.4hydra.com. Sky, please come find me in Sweden, guess what, it's legal here.



Just wanted to say thanks for your efforts guys - this is working really well for me!

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 309757 22-Mar-2010 11:48
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blur:
ObidiahSlope: Here is a newspaper item regarding pending court action.

The outcome of this case is likely to have a great deal of influence as to whether Sky TV is correct in its assertion that third parties providing programming information without its permission are breaking copyright.

Item about court action on www.stuff.co.nz


This is a very cool article with the pending court case will having far reaching effects for New Zealand. The article mentioned the IceTV case in Australia, and this actually prompted me to take a look at the IceTV website and take a look at their offerings.

I asked myself if I'd pay $99 / year for EPG??? The short answer yes, I probably would. However there is a slight difference between their offering and what we are discussing. IceTV offers only free-to-air channels, not EPG for Australia's equivalent of Sky (is this Optus?)

Perhaps this is not a slam-dunk like we all think?


yeah but sky has to realise something.  this is the internet.  people will find a way around it.  they can't keep up with it.  they're just wasting their time and money and pissing off their users (the only reason you would want to grab skys tv guide data, is if you are a paying sky subscriber).

and i have done exactly what they asked, im not hosting or providing any means of getting sky tv guide data or any other tv guide data.  im not using any trademarks and i'm not breaking any copyrights.

so yes i have given in to all their requests, and guess what, you can still get EPG.  you just have to go through sweden :P

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  Reply # 309767 22-Mar-2010 12:06
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Bob8051: Who will be affected by this take down notice?

 

Reven, of course,. but also the PC home theatre community.  In particular the people that want to watch Sky on there PC’s.  These people are all paying customers of Sky and hand money over to Sky every month for there decoder box. 


Well done sky!  Go ahead and bite the hand that feeds you.  I think that it is very unlikely that these customers will want to ditch there home theatre systems and buy a my-Sky box.


So what has Sky managed to achieve? They threatened Reven and pissed off many of there paying customers.





Write in to Sky, and let them know your feelings. Write, do not phone or e-mail. Write a proper letter, noting that you are a regular customer, and have been paying your way for years.

Even if you find another way around it, still write in and let them know that you are unimpressed with their heavy handed tactics.

If there are THAT many people using Sky's EPG in one way or another, that should be a bucket load of letters that they have to individually deal with, and not fob off with a standard e-mail template or canned verbal responses.

And when you get  Sky's response back, maybe about copyright laws, etc, write back, asking for details of how the EPG infringes on their copyright when you are a paying customer. If you don't get a reply, keep pushing it up the chain. to the top if necessary.

Be polite, make clear statements, and ask for a response every time.

 




My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 309810 22-Mar-2010 14:50
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For any one who is trying to get their EPG to work in MediaPortal try this!

http://vangelder.orcon.net.nz/files/FreeviewToXMLTV.zip

This programme looks simular to revens but with one click it gets the data and transforms it into an xml file.

The only thing I changed in the config file was to rename it to tvguide.xml. As shown below in bold and underlined. you will see from the download once you open it in note pad what i mean

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<configuration>
    <configSections>
        <sectionGroup name="applicationSettings" type="System.Configuration.ApplicationSettingsGroup, System, Version=2.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b77a5c561934e089" >
            <section name="FreeviewToXMLTV.Properties.Settings" type="System.Configuration.ClientSettingsSection, System, Version=2.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b77a5c561934e089" requirePermission="false" />
        </sectionGroup>
    </configSections>
    <applicationSettings>
        <FreeviewToXMLTV.Properties.Settings>
            <setting name="ChannelsFileName" serializeAs="String">
                <value>channels.xml</value>
            </setting>
            <setting name="XMLTVFileName" serializeAs="String">
                <value>tvguide.xml</value>
            </setting>
        </FreeviewToXMLTV.Properties.Settings>
    </applicationSettings>
</configuration>

From there I put the whole 4 files into my MediaPortal TVServer folder and created a schedule to execute the FreeviewToXMLTV.exe once a day at your preferred set time. I had to enable Admin rights in Vista.
But once done, it automatically downloads new tvguide.xml
Media Portal then exports the listings via the MediaportalTVServer.bat file which was part of the original freeviewNZ-EPG-GBPVR download.

Oh well hopefully that will help simplify things Laughing

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 309832 22-Mar-2010 16:33
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Jace: The only thing I changed in the config file was to rename it to tvguide.xml.


I updated it last night to resolve some issues for a fellow geekzoner.
The config is tvguide.xml by default now, so hopefully no need to edit anything :D

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 311918 27-Mar-2010 18:36
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I have only just picked up on this thread: have not been visiting Geekzone as much as I used to recently. I have been using XMLTVNZ for most of its existence & find it brilliant for its task of generating an accurate EPG, which I use through Mediaportal.

It just goes to show the moronic attitude that exists in corporate society.

You post information over the internet for everyone's perusal (is this the same information they scrape for their DVB-S EPG?), then expect terms & conditions explicit for their proprietary. Even though this information is aiding a good number of legitimate Sky subscribers, as has been stipulated already in this thread.

Their attitude is exactly why I have NEVER subscribed to Sky: & NEVER WILL. They have always treated their customer base with nothing less than total disdain over the years. Look at times they forced (sports) subscribers to re-invest in large dollar equipment upgrades by putting the best content onto the new platforms, knowing the subscribers had no option but to pay if they wanted to continue viewing their preferred sports events.

Sorry Sky, you get the big finger raised directly in your direction for your pathetic stance in this matter.

 It reminds me of the time Pizza Hut threatened legal action against a 17yr old kid for going across to Hell Pizza, against his contract clause requiring him not to work in a similar industry for six months. I have never stepped foot in a Pizza Hut since: & won't, again. I live by my principles. So Sky, here's my final thoughts:

 





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  Reply # 311925 27-Mar-2010 19:32
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1gkar: I have only just picked up on this thread: have not been visiting Geekzone as much as I used to recently. I have been using XMLTVNZ for most of its existence & find it brilliant for its task of generating an accurate EPG, which I use through Mediaportal.

It just goes to show the moronic attitude that exists in corporate society.

You post information over the internet for everyone's perusal (is this the same information they scrape for their DVB-S EPG?), then expect terms & conditions explicit for their proprietary. Even though this information is aiding a good number of legitimate Sky subscribers, as has been stipulated already in this thread.

Their attitude is exactly why I have NEVER subscribed to Sky: & NEVER WILL. They have always treated their customer base with nothing less than total disdain over the years. Look at times they forced (sports) subscribers to re-invest in large dollar equipment upgrades by putting the best content onto the new platforms, knowing the subscribers had no option but to pay if they wanted to continue viewing their preferred sports events.

Sorry Sky, you get the big finger raised directly in your direction for your pathetic stance in this matter.

 It reminds me of the time Pizza Hut threatened legal action against a 17yr old kid for going across to Hell Pizza, against his contract clause requiring him not to work in a similar industry for six months. I have never stepped foot in a Pizza Hut since: & won't, again. I live by my principles. So Sky, here's my final thoughts:

 



all i can say to that is: lol :)

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  Reply # 311959 27-Mar-2010 23:21
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1gkar:
You post information over the internet for everyone's perusal (is this the same information they scrape for their DVB-S EPG?), then expect terms & conditions explicit for their proprietary.


there was an article in the resellernews/computerworld recently which talked of website t&c's and how enforceable they were.  The conclusions i drew were that if you had a notice, in your face, of the t&c's  before you could do something on the site then they would be enforceable whether you read them or not (you had been gven the opportunity to review them).  If a site only introduced t&c's via a link on page footers then resonable notice was not deemed to have occurred and therefore they wouldnt likely be upheld.  There were a couple of cases quoted to back these poistions up, although they were US cases i think.

the SKY website only links their t&c's in the footer.  because they dont present a link and a button to continue constituting an "i agree" then it could be argued (as per above) that the sky website t&cs were not enforceable.

i'm not suggesting that reven test that theory for the same reason as others... but i do think SKY deserve a bit of bad press over this.




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  Reply # 311963 28-Mar-2010 00:08
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Regs:
1gkar:
You post information over the internet for everyone's perusal (is this the same information they scrape for their DVB-S EPG?), then expect terms & conditions explicit for their proprietary.


there was an article in the resellernews/computerworld recently which talked of website t&c's and how enforceable they were.  The conclusions i drew were that if you had a notice, in your face, of the t&c's  before you could do something on the site then they would be enforceable whether you read them or not (you had been gven the opportunity to review them).  If a site only introduced t&c's via a link on page footers then resonable notice was not deemed to have occurred and therefore they wouldnt likely be upheld.  There were a couple of cases quoted to back these poistions up, although they were US cases i think.

the SKY website only links their t&c's in the footer.  because they dont present a link and a button to continue constituting an "i agree" then it could be argued (as per above) that the sky website t&cs were not enforceable.

i'm not suggesting that reven test that theory for the same reason as others... but i do think SKY deserve a bit of bad press over this.


this is really the argument.  no epg sources/providers/programs/whatever im aware of were actually getting anything from skys website.  some where getting from the satelite feed and uploading it.  xmltvnz was getting the data from tvnz, tv3, saturn, xtra and a few other places, but not from skytv.co.nz

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  Reply # 312021 28-Mar-2010 12:10
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Another long time Sky subscriber and user of xmltv. Like everyone else, I am appalled at the bullyboy tactics and, like Reven says, the Internet makes it pointless as well. When will they learn?

But most of all, I want to thank Reven for his service and sorry you were the one to get threatened.

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  Reply # 312474 29-Mar-2010 16:46
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This Makes me feel better about ditching sky.

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 312524 29-Mar-2010 18:15
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Another component to this debate that specifically affects New Zealand, as opposed to other countries that have embraced the HTPC as a means of scheduling (HD)TV via an EPG is we are in the distinct minority in terms of TV broadcasters' protecting online TV programme scheduling content.

I believe not even the US has this in place. I could be proven incorrect, but I seem to remember reading an article to this effect some while back. Go figure: the most litigious Country on Earth (US) has more liberal laws than us. Or maybe, they have smarter people in places of decision-making authority. Could make a good Tui ad, that one.




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  Reply # 313078 30-Mar-2010 20:33
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We in the HTPC community have been having this discussion for, ooooh, feels like the better part of a decade now.  And it still gets me steamed.  And then I get perplexed.  Because I try to "know your enemy" in matters like this, yet I genuinely can't fathom why Sky would go all slap-happy with this.


  • They're not worried about scraping data from their website, because we know xmlTVNZ uses non-Sky sites to obtain the raw data, so they can't be concerned about excess bandwidth and data calls to their web servers.

  • They can't be worried about loss of advertising revenue because they don't host any external banner ads on their website that people suddenly aren't visiting any more because of their HTPCs.  The amount of advertising revenue lost from channels is minimal since not all their channels show ads and the amount of people with HTPCs is tiny anyway.

  • They are currently making money from other websites by selling their 'copyright' (arguable, by the looks of things on this forum and the brilliantly courageous IceTV) information to them, all quite happily and none of them are complaining about this, or they would have been mentioned in Sky's letter to Reven as other parties.

  • They are negatively impacting the experience of every single one of their customers who has a Sky subscription that is connected to an HTPC box, something most companies try not to do in times of a tough economy, as well as creating negative PR for potential subscribers.

  • It can't be because they think that not having an EPG will help them to sell more MySky boxes, because Freeview is gaining strength thanks to TiVo and a host of Freeview PVRs now being on the market, so they should be looking to keep every Sky subscriber they can and not annoying them even a little bit.


Other companies invest in their development communities and actively help them out with resources and information in order to grow their entire market (Apple's App Store, Google's Android, Amazon hosting and also Marketplace, Xbox and PlayStation and PSP dev communities, etc, etc).  Are they simply being bully-boys because they can't work out how to make money from Reven's app?  In which case why don't they buy it from reven and then charge us for it, like IceTV does in Aus?  Most of us would gladly pay for a commercially supported EPG - we're not trying to steal for laughs, we do it this way because there is no paid-for alternative!

After the rude and devious letter Sky sent reven I think they deserve everything they get on this, so what about us asking for a big friend on 'our side' in this battle, to level the playing-field a bit?  In other words, who else stands to gain from selling more HTPCs (or more specifically, selling more HTPC operating systems) who would want in on this against Sky's monopolistic tactics?  I'll give you a clue: they're a big international software manufacturer whose name starts with M...

CJ

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  Reply # 313164 30-Mar-2010 21:47
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CJbravo: We in the HTPC community have been having this discussion for, ooooh, feels like the better part of a decade now.  And it still gets me steamed.  And then I get perplexed.  Because I try to "know your enemy" in matters like this, yet I genuinely can't fathom why Sky would go all slap-happy with this.



    <snip>

  • They are currently making money from other websites by selling their 'copyright' (arguable, by the looks of things on this forum and the brilliantly courageous IceTV) information to them, all quite happily and none of them are complaining about this, or they would have been mentioned in Sky's letter to Reven as other parties.


<snip>


As my guess ... I would assuming that they sell the license to re-distribute scheduling information to other publications (not just on the intarwebnets) - local papers, the Listener, TV Guide, etc.

Perhaps the legal team is worried about the non-intarwebnet publications learning about a precedent being set where an entity can retrieve the scheduling information for free that a source of revenue will be lost?

Maybe I wrong on that count - but it's the only real justification I can think of. 

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