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helis
96 posts

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  #829575 2-Jun-2013 11:45
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sbiddle: Some of the reduction will end up being absorbed by the new wiring charges, which will at least get around all the people installing VDSL2 and refusing to pay for a master filter which is absolutely essential.


Why is it absolutely essential? I've had ADSL and VDSL in NZ and Australia for the past 11 years and never once had a master filter.

NonprayingMantis
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  #829610 2-Jun-2013 13:07
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helis:
sbiddle: Some of the reduction will end up being absorbed by the new wiring charges, which will at least get around all the people installing VDSL2 and refusing to pay for a master filter which is absolutely essential.


Why is it absolutely essential? I've had ADSL and VDSL in NZ and Australia for the past 11 years and never once had a master filter.


Who sells vdsl in Australia?

 
 
 
 


sbiddle
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  #829635 2-Jun-2013 14:06
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helis:
sbiddle: Some of the reduction will end up being absorbed by the new wiring charges, which will at least get around all the people installing VDSL2 and refusing to pay for a master filter which is absolutely essential.


Why is it absolutely essential? I've had ADSL and VDSL in NZ and Australia for the past 11 years and never once had a master filter.


Rather than answering this question which has been answered in literally hundreds of theads here in rcent times I'll simply point you to my blog post on wiring.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/8357

The simple reality is if you don't have a master filter or a single dedicated jack point for ADSL your broadband performance is likely being impacted. With VDSL2 it will be impacted.




surfisup1000
4875 posts

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  #829637 2-Jun-2013 14:09
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helis:

Why is it absolutely essential? I've had ADSL and VDSL in NZ and Australia for the past 11 years and never once had a master filter.


Then also quite likely you have not received full speed either. 

But, it is not essential in ALL cases to have a master filter.   But , houses with more than one phone outlet or a monitored alarm will probably need a master filter. 

See the many guides on geekzone for the reasons. 

helis
96 posts

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  #829667 2-Jun-2013 15:28
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You all fail to understand what absolutely essential means I see. Sure a master filter can but not always improve your speeds. It's far from absolutely essential tho.

All of the replies are saying I will not be getting my maximum speed. Maximum sync is not what your ISP cares about nor is it absolutely essential then you get 100% of what lines capability. Most people would only consider getting a master filter if A. They have a back to base alarm or B. have 3-4 phones plugged in. Aside from those two things the only benefit you may see in most cases will be a few extra meg on your sync speed(if youre lucky). Not really essential but with out a doubt for us geeks it is nice.

I found rewiring my house with cat5e was far more beneficial then a master filter. But this isn't essential either.

richms
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  #829670 2-Jun-2013 15:34
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Other users in the same cable bundle will benifit as well due to a poorly matched line having more crosstalk. Im not sure what the deal is in aussie with their internal wiring, but in NZ for a long time there was a bastard way of doing it ripped off the UK with a third wire for the ringer. That wire is connected to one of the other wires thru a capacitor which puts a signnifigant different load on one half of a pair than the other.

Result is an unbalanced pair which will then radiate more noise than a properly ballanced pair would.

Its something that IMO should be tested before any DSL service is allowed to be provisioned on the line.




Richard rich.ms

sbiddle
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  #829687 2-Jun-2013 16:14
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helis: You all fail to understand what absolutely essential means I see. Sure a master filter can but not always improve your speeds. It's far from absolutely essential tho.


No I don't have a misunderstanding at all, I understand entirely what the word essential means. I believe a master filter should be compulsary in every xDSL install unless the connection is to a single jackpoint on a naked connection.

Over 80% of NZ premises should have a ADSL sync rate of at least 10Mbps. The real world figure is well below this because the typical NZ home has absolutely munted home wiring. If you don't believe in a filter that's fine by me, but your comments clearly show you don't have a technical understanding of xDSL, or work in the industry. If you did you wouldn't be disagreeing with that I'm trying to explain.

If I ran Chorus I would not provision any xDSL service on a line that didn't comply with the above, and would refuse a truck roll to any "my internet is slow" faults until the home owner committed to a master filter install. Unfortunately this isn't possible in the real world because most home owners don't believe it's there problem and aren't interested in paying to get their problems fixed.





 
 
 
 


helis
96 posts

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  #829692 2-Jun-2013 16:33
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sbiddle:
helis: You all fail to understand what absolutely essential means I see. Sure a master filter can but not always improve your speeds. It's far from absolutely essential tho.


No I don't have a misunderstanding at all, I understand entirely what the word essential means. I believe a master filter should be compulsary in every xDSL install unless the connection is to a single jackpoint on a naked connection.

Over 80% of NZ premises should have a ADSL sync rate of at least 10Mbps. The real world figure is well below this because the typical NZ home has absolutely munted home wiring. If you don't believe in a filter that's fine by me, but your comments clearly show you don't have a technical understanding of xDSL, or work in the industry. If you did you wouldn't be disagreeing with that I'm trying to explain.

If I ran Chorus I would not provision any xDSL service on a line that didn't comply with the above, and would refuse a truck roll to any "my internet is slow" faults until the home owner committed to a master filter install. Unfortunately this isn't possible in the real world because most home owners don't believe it's there problem and aren't interested in paying to get their problems fixed.






I have experience which differs from your opinion and from that experience I know that when a normal end user says "My internets slow" it has nothing to do with their line and everything to do with the cheap over subscribed ISP they are currently with.

 

Again I know the benefit of a master filter but its not a silver bullet that you are making it out to be. Its the perfect fix for certain situations but it doesn't fix everything. In my years in the business its actually low down on the list of things I did to fix "my internets slow or broken". I really can't go against my own experience and I just dont see a master filter as a must have item and more so not at the current insane prices that Chorus want to charge.



 

 

 

sbiddle
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  #829708 2-Jun-2013 17:28
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There are stats I'd love to post here but simply can't, but it's safe to say seeing line sync results across an entire cabinet ISAM where every customer should have a minimum sync rate of around 14Mbps based upon the MPF loop length really opens up your eyes to how bad internal wiring is in this country.

Once again it's your view and you're entitled to it. I just see the other side and have the stats stats to show what a massive impact internal premises wiring is. Yes it won't magically improve every connection, but when a significant % of users of a loaded ISAM would see their speeds double I I just fail to see why anybody wouldn't share the same viewpoint.

fellaintga
195 posts

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  #829786 2-Jun-2013 21:04
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sbiddle: There are stats I'd love to post here but simply can't, but it's safe to say seeing line sync results across an entire cabinet ISAM where every customer should have a minimum sync rate of around 14Mbps based upon the MPF loop length really opens up your eyes to how bad internal wiring is in this country.

Once again it's your view and you're entitled to it. I just see the other side and have the stats stats to show what a massive impact internal premises wiring is. Yes it won't magically improve every connection, but when a significant % of users of a loaded ISAM would see their speeds double I I just fail to see why anybody wouldn't share the same viewpoint.


You are correct and I have even found the cable from the jackpoint to the modem has caused low sync rates.  But in the next 5 years with a good portion of people switching to fibre then this issue will go away by itself.  Its going to get fixed by proxy over time with a fibre install and everyone will have the same experience as far as the physical connection to the home is concerned.

UncleArthur
184 posts

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  #829875 3-Jun-2013 00:45
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Just to add my 5cents worth in reply to helis on the splitter issue.

Regarding 'essential' need for a xDSL splitter.
If you are opting for VDSL and are keeping POTS for your voice, if you don't have a master splitter, then snap won't even progress the install.

So, you can argue until your blue in the face that it's not technically essential, but if SNAP (or any other ISP as far as I can see) won't even initiate an install without one, then that seems to me to be an essential pre-requisite to getting VDSL.

So, therefore it is essential.

For example, SNAP won't progress an install without payment up front. It may technically be possible, but they won't do it..... therefore payment up front is essential. Same goes for the splitter.

This is of course unless you are doing voip, in which case there is no need for a splitter (still need to pay upfront).


PS: Even if you could get the install done without a splitter, you'd be a fool. (much like arguing further on this topic)..... Also there are plenty of cheaper options for getting a splitter installed  than paying for chorus to do it (I paid $175 four weeks ago)....... but then you'd know that already with your 'years' in the business.

chevrolux
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  #829957 3-Jun-2013 10:24
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I think we are a little asphyxiated on the whole splitter thing.

I agree that splitters should be installed no matter what on xDSL connections. But the situtation is always going to be difference house to house. For probably more than 90% of houses and splitter is going to be a must because the wiring would have been done to suit POTS and not DSL.

A 'full install' from Chorus may not necessarily mean install a splitter. I have often turned up for a basic 'full install' and found thr wiring to be in such a state that I would have run a new cable to the demarc and recommended running ethernet to where the customer needed it rather than muck around trying to get a spare pair through a maze of rubbish wiring.
In this instance a splitter wasn't entirely needed as we had a single wire coming from the exchange to the DSL modem. But quite often POTS would be involved so a splitter would be put in anyway instead of a rubbish plug-in filter.

if you have POTS and want VDSL then you MUST have a splitter. Naked VDSL may not require a splitter but must only have a single wiring with no stubs coming off it - which just flat out isn't going to be the case in 90% of NZ homes.

UncleArthur
184 posts

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  #833294 9-Jun-2013 23:39
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So, June 7th has come and gone.... looking forward to seeing some update pricing on the snap website Wink

hamish225
1323 posts

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  #833318 10-Jun-2013 01:37
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whyyyyyyyyyyyy are we waitinggggggggggggggggggg?





vexxxboy
3335 posts

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  #833338 10-Jun-2013 07:50
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Regarding 'essential' need for a xDSL splitter.
If you are opting for VDSL and are keeping POTS for your voice, if you don't have a master splitter, then snap won't even progress the install.


not quite true, Snap installed VDSL with pots at my house without a master splitter and they didnt even ask. I did get one installed later and it made no vast difference to my speeds.




Common sense is not as common as you think.


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