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Topic # 134026 12-Nov-2013 12:24
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now that vodafone are doing hd voice can 2degrees enable it?



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  Reply # 931347 12-Nov-2013 12:27
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2Degrees did not need to wait for Vodafone to enable HD voice



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  Reply # 931348 12-Nov-2013 12:28
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johnr: 2Degrees did not need to wait for Vodafone to enable HD voice


i know, but they said they were "hd ready" and didn't see demand for it yet.  sure, i wanted it before, but i had no options to get it before, and now i do, so that may encourage them to enable it.

i think the only reason that there isn't more demand is because people are used to how bad the quality is right now, and don't realise how much better hd voice is.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 931372 12-Nov-2013 12:55
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mercutio:
johnr: 2Degrees did not need to wait for Vodafone to enable HD voice


i know, but they said they were "hd ready" and didn't see demand for it yet.  sure, i wanted it before, but i had no options to get it before, and now i do, so that may encourage them to enable it.

i think the only reason that there isn't more demand is because people are used to how bad the quality is right now, and don't realise how much better hd voice is.



The reason there isn't more demand is that there are a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each, and b) it only works on transcoder-free circuits, which to cut a long story short means it won't work between providers, at least not without all three carriers agreeing to introduce transcoder-free interconnects, which will cost a big chunk of time and money and return precisely zero business benefit to any of us.




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  Reply # 931378 12-Nov-2013 13:02
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SaltyNZ: a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each


Is this list not applicable to NZ?

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  Reply # 931383 12-Nov-2013 13:06
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allio:
SaltyNZ: a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each


Is this list not applicable to NZ?


Actually, that's more than I thought. Still very smartphone-heavy though which was more my point. Dumb phones outweigh smartphones many to one in the real world. As self-proclaimed Geeks on Geekzone this is something you possibly tend not to notice.




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  Reply # 931394 12-Nov-2013 13:14
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SaltyNZ:
allio:
SaltyNZ: a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each


Is this list not applicable to NZ?


Actually, that's more than I thought. Still very smartphone-heavy though which was more my point. Dumb phones outweigh smartphones many to one in the real world. As self-proclaimed Geeks on Geekzone this is something you possibly tend not to notice.


well i for one find most people i have phone calls with use smartphones (individuals), or voip (businesses).  both of which should be moving to high def.

sure some people have dumb phones, and it'll fall back.  but current cellphone call quality is pretty bad.  and normal analogue quality is bad too.




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  Reply # 931409 12-Nov-2013 13:23
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SaltyNZ:
mercutio:
johnr: 2Degrees did not need to wait for Vodafone to enable HD voice


i know, but they said they were "hd ready" and didn't see demand for it yet.  sure, i wanted it before, but i had no options to get it before, and now i do, so that may encourage them to enable it.

i think the only reason that there isn't more demand is because people are used to how bad the quality is right now, and don't realise how much better hd voice is.



The reason there isn't more demand is that there are a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each, and b) it only works on transcoder-free circuits, which to cut a long story short means it won't work between providers, at least not without all three carriers agreeing to introduce transcoder-free interconnects, which will cost a big chunk of time and money and return precisely zero business benefit to any of us.


i got my phone from overseas for $135 USD including shipping, and it's on that list of supported cellphones.  You can buy a Nexus 4 new today for $400 NZ (http://www.warehousestationery.co.nz/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/WSL-B2C-Site/en_NZ/-/NZD/ViewOfferDetail-Product?ProductRef=214182@WSL-B2C&utm_source=B2Cwebstore&utm_medium=CMLandingPage&utm_campaign=WK16ClickMadness&utm_content=Nexus+4)

Already the cellphone networks overload for phone calls when there are major events, and yet continue to work for data.  It could be argued that this suggests that their call forwarding abilities aren't adequete currently, and it's computationally more expensive to transcode than pass data through directly.  It also creates lower quality.

I'd rather have even just 2degrees to 2degrees hd voice at first than nothing.  I'm sure the transcoding interconnected shouldn't be that complicated, i don't see how it's vastly different than voip systems doing passthrough g722 and g729 when supported, and transcoding for g711 interconnects.



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  Reply # 931435 12-Nov-2013 13:53
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mercutio:

i got my phone from overseas for $135 USD including shipping, and it's on that list of supported cellphones.  You can buy a Nexus 4 new today for $400 NZ (http://www.warehousestationery.co.nz/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/WSL-B2C-Site/en_NZ/-/NZD/ViewOfferDetail-Product?ProductRef=214182@WSL-B2C&utm_source=B2Cwebstore&utm_medium=CMLandingPage&utm_campaign=WK16ClickMadness&utm_content=Nexus+4)



Yes, you can. But phones under $100 outsell them quite handily. Sure, it's changing, but we're not there yet. There are hundreds of thousands of devices out there that aren't even 3G-capable, let alone HD Voice. There are still lots of 2G phones in the market for sale. 


Already the cellphone networks overload for phone calls when there are major events, and yet continue to work for data.  It could be argued that this suggests that their call forwarding abilities aren't adequete currently,


No, it means that circuit-switched services have run out of circuits, or that the signaling channels are overwhelmed. Data performance is also degraded, often more so. In any case I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion, because HD Voice is a circuit-switched service, not a packet-switched service. It will get just as clogged as any other voice service.


and it's computationally more expensive to transcode than pass data through directly.  It also creates lower quality.


Precisely. 


I'd rather have even just 2degrees to 2degrees hd voice at first than nothing.


Yes, that's how it will be offered at first, most likely.


 I'm sure the transcoding interconnected shouldn't be that complicated, i don't see how it's vastly different than voip systems doing passthrough g722 and g729 when supported, and transcoding for g711 interconnects.



It's not significantly more or less complicated than a normal E1 interconnect. It's just that it costs us time and money to do it, but doesn't make us any revenue. As much as we want to offer everything to everyone immediately, we are all businesses, not charities, and so we need to prioritise. Transcoder-free interconnect will happen eventually, but don't hold your breath.

So anyway, that's my answer to your original comment that you are surprised there's not more demand. There's not more demand because the vast majority of phones in people's hands at the moment don't support it, longer list of handset models that do than I expected notwithstanding. There are maybe a hundred on that list, but there are thousands of phones that aren't.




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  Reply # 931464 12-Nov-2013 14:23
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SaltyNZ: The reason there isn't more demand is that there are a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each, and b) it only works on transcoder-free circuits, which to cut a long story short means it won't work between providers, at least not without all three carriers agreeing to introduce transcoder-free interconnects, which will cost a big chunk of time and money and return precisely zero business benefit to any of us.


I'd have thought the business benefit were customer satisfaction and enabling the marketing departing to use another buzzword, as well as keeping up with the Jones's. The cost-benefit analysis probably doesn't pan out though.

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  Reply # 931470 12-Nov-2013 14:29
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timmmay:
SaltyNZ: The reason there isn't more demand is that there are a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each, and b) it only works on transcoder-free circuits, which to cut a long story short means it won't work between providers, at least not without all three carriers agreeing to introduce transcoder-free interconnects, which will cost a big chunk of time and money and return precisely zero business benefit to any of us.


I'd have thought the business benefit were customer satisfaction and enabling the marketing departing to use another buzzword, as well as keeping up with the Jones's. The cost-benefit analysis probably doesn't pan out though.


Oh, we love the buzzwords. We're geeks too, you know. 




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  Reply # 931487 12-Nov-2013 14:38
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allio:
SaltyNZ: a) only a small handful of devices in the market that support it - and they tend to cost the best part of $1000 each


Is this list not applicable to NZ?


No it's not. Most phones on that list may be capable of AMR-WB, but don't necessarily have it enabled.

I have a Nokia E72, Nokia N9 and Galaxy S3 all of which are on that list and all support AMR-WB. It's disabled on all 3 devices, with no easy way of enabling it (firmware settings required in all 3).


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  Reply # 931490 12-Nov-2013 14:41
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mercutio:   I'm sure the transcoding interconnected shouldn't be that complicated, i don't see how it's vastly different than voip systems doing passthrough g722 and g729 when supported, and transcoding for g711 interconnects.




Transcoding is the root of all evil. On a VoIP interconnect for example transcoding should never occur to allow G.711 - G.722 or G.729 should be supported if available but every system should support G.711 and this be used as a fallback option.



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  Reply # 931494 12-Nov-2013 14:45
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sbiddle:
mercutio:   I'm sure the transcoding interconnected shouldn't be that complicated, i don't see how it's vastly different than voip systems doing passthrough g722 and g729 when supported, and transcoding for g711 interconnects.




Transcoding is the root of all evil. On a VoIP interconnect for example transcoding should never occur to allow G.711 - G.722 or G.729 should be supported if available but every system should support G.711 and this be used as a fallback option.


i thought a lot of VOIP systems were using GSM.  Overseas call centres are always terrible for me.

I would rather use straight through G711 or straight through G722.  But some people seem to want to use G729, and it's not unreasonable to only allow G711.  So at some point transcoding has to happen.  It seems to be extra bad when there is NZ number that goes to Australia, India, the US etc..  Even from a landline without double compression.

I suppose the most likely candidate for getting high def audio to people right now with the most common success is Skype, but unfortunately Skype uses a lot of battery on smartphones.


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  Reply # 931574 12-Nov-2013 16:09
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mercutio:
sbiddle:
mercutio:   I'm sure the transcoding interconnected shouldn't be that complicated, i don't see how it's vastly different than voip systems doing passthrough g722 and g729 when supported, and transcoding for g711 interconnects.




Transcoding is the root of all evil. On a VoIP interconnect for example transcoding should never occur to allow G.711 - G.722 or G.729 should be supported if available but every system should support G.711 and this be used as a fallback option.


i thought a lot of VOIP systems were using GSM.  Overseas call centres are always terrible for me.

I would rather use straight through G711 or straight through G722.  But some people seem to want to use G729, and it's not unreasonable to only allow G711.  So at some point transcoding has to happen.  It seems to be extra bad when there is NZ number that goes to Australia, India, the US etc..  Even from a landline without double compression.

I suppose the most likely candidate for getting high def audio to people right now with the most common success is Skype, but unfortunately Skype uses a lot of battery on smartphones.



The problem with transcoding it uses CPU cycles. It also poses the question of who should do the transcoding. The reason why E1's are standard for interconnects is because complex issues such as this don't occur.

VoIP doesn't need transcoding, the invite or reinvite should negotiate the appropriate codec, but in the real world G.711 really needs to be supported by everybody. I've come across plenty of issues with people configuring something like an Asterisk box badly only allowing G.729 for example and then other people not being able to call them because they don't support G.729


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