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495 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 143274 8-Apr-2014 20:50
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If you are in a contract with them, it will cost you the price of the plan to downgrade (e.g $75 for Lightwave Ultra > Home)
.. Fair enough, you are in a contract on that plan.

If you are NOT in contract with them, it will STILL cost you to downgrade plans.
but you can leave for free and switch providers so instead of making slightly less money, they make nothing.
Even the girl on the phone thought that was stupid


Snap, Do you plan on changing this policy?
Why does it have to apply when contracts are over






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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1020935 8-Apr-2014 22:58
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Perhaps their ordering system is not fully automated, or it actually costs them to action a plan change regardless of whether the end user is in contract or not. I'm sure they are just passing on the reasonable costs. If there is a cost to making changes they could be swallowing them for plan upgrades in lieu of getting more from you a month. 



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  Reply # 1020948 8-Apr-2014 23:51
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insane, if it actually is a cost for them, that cost should be weighted against how much it costs them to get a new customer.

Setting aside, of course, that treating existing customers good is good idea to start with for customer retention.




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  Reply # 1020950 8-Apr-2014 23:59
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jarledb: insane, if it actually is a cost for them, that cost should be weighted against how much it costs them to get a new customer.

Setting aside, of course, that treating existing customers good is good idea to start with for customer retention.


I guess they could make plan changes/downgrades free, but would you be willing to pay more per month for that? I'm guessing not. Is a user-pays model not more fair in this instance?

I do get what you're saying about existing customers, but if they include all possible added fees into the standard monthly fee then their pricing wouldn't be competitive, and the many would be subsidising the few. There are T&Cs to read for a reason, if you don't like the way they choose to do things then look to another provider.

I just don't see why they should reward or show goodwill to a user who is downgrading their spend if that change in itself is costing them to implement.





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  Reply # 1020952 9-Apr-2014 00:24
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I am not aware of any other ISP who does this, none I have used do this. I also can't see how it is a cost to downgrade. Sure they get a lesser monthly fee, but their cost also decreases to provide that service.  Do they also charge for upgrading to a higher plan, if they consider it an admin cost? 

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  Reply # 1020954 9-Apr-2014 00:43
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insane:
jarledb: insane, if it actually is a cost for them, that cost should be weighted against how much it costs them to get a new customer.

Setting aside, of course, that treating existing customers good is good idea to start with for customer retention.


I guess they could make plan changes/downgrades free, but would you be willing to pay more per month for that? I'm guessing not. Is a user-pays model not more fair in this instance?

I do get what you're saying about existing customers, but if they include all possible added fees into the standard monthly fee then their pricing wouldn't be competitive, and the many would be subsidising the few. There are T&Cs to read for a reason, if you don't like the way they choose to do things then look to another provider.

I just don't see why they should reward or show goodwill to a user who is downgrading their spend if that change in itself is costing them to implement.







If we were talking about a downgrade from, say, UFB to copper (if that is even possible, which I don't think it is unless moving house)  then I could understand charging for it, there is a genuine and significant cost to that.
But a downgrade from UFB100 to UFB30 is surely just a configuration change.  Shouldn't be any real cost. 5 minutes of a CSRs time max.

Whilst you can argue that a 'user pays' model is fairer, where every little cost incurred is passed on to the individual, that ends up being really confusing for customers, and difficult to manage for the ISP.

I've seen the outrage on these very forums when ISPs try that sort of thing - whether it is charging for using the call centre, charging for paper bills, charging for credit card payment.  Those are all examples of 'user pays' and they do not go down well with customers. Even data caps are a form of user pays (even if data caps aren't a very useful proxy for peak time international bandwidth usage) and we all know just how popular data caps are :-)

Adding on extra fees here and there, a bit for this and a bit for that, a connection fee here, a modem rental there, a plan change fee here, an overage charge there, a paper bill charge, a credit card surcharge, convenience fees, late payment fees, disconnection fees, and especially fees not made very clear when signing up, is nasty.  It's what Theresa Gattung meant when she talked about Telcos using confusion as a marketing tool. (she wasn't just talking about Telecom, she was referring to all Telcos)

It works (in the short term) at getting more money and more customers, because you can display lower prices initially to get the customer onboard and into a contract, but they end up spending more and generating higher ARPU. This is why it is so tempting for ISPs to do it, and almost all of them do it.

In the long term however, it sucks (for the Telco) when people wise up to it or just get annoyed by the confusion and switch to an ISP with simple plans, which they always do eventually.

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  Reply # 1020970 9-Apr-2014 07:10
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Does Chorus or another organisation have to make a change? If so then there would be a cost involved.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1020973 9-Apr-2014 07:13
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Weird, I'm sure I've changed down plans in and out of contract before without any additional fees..



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1021000 9-Apr-2014 08:49
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I can understand a charge if you were switching from UFB>Copper as that would result in the ISP being charged a connection fee by Chorus as well as other costs involved
but when its UFB>UFB, There should not be a charge

There is no charge to upgrade to a higher plan so seems more policy than billing system related


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1021029 9-Apr-2014 09:33
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There are charges invovled with MAC changes on UFB:

Chorus 7.1

New connection
or plan change
with no site visit
required

Establishment of a new service over existing
fibre or change to configuration of an
existing instance of the Wholesale service.
This charge does not apply to establishment
of a new service on existing fibre where
there was no Connection Fee for the original
Residential Connection.

Charge equivalent to 1 months
recurring fee for the new service.
In the case of a new connection
the charge may not exceed the
Transactional Charge that would
be payable to establish the
service instance if an installation
was required.




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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1021033 9-Apr-2014 09:41
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Beccara: There are charges invovled with MAC changes on UFB:

Chorus 7.1

New connection
or plan change
with no site visit
required

Establishment of a new service over existing
fibre or change to configuration of an
existing instance of the Wholesale service.
This charge does not apply to establishment
of a new service on existing fibre where
there was no Connection Fee for the original
Residential Connection.

Charge equivalent to 1 months
recurring fee for the new service.
In the case of a new connection
the charge may not exceed the
Transactional Charge that would
be payable to establish the
service instance if an installation
was required.


So if this is set by Crown Fibre (or negotiated between the LFC's and Crown Fibre) and Snap are simply passing this on, with Crown Fibre being a Government Department, one could argue that this is actually a charge implemented by the voters of NZ rather than the RSP :)  Peoples Logic :)

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  Reply # 1021034 9-Apr-2014 09:41
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Beccara: There are charges invovled with MAC changes on UFB:

Chorus 7.1

New connection
or plan change
with no site visit
required

Establishment of a new service over existing
fibre or change to configuration of an
existing instance of the Wholesale service.
This charge does not apply to establishment
of a new service on existing fibre where
there was no Connection Fee for the original
Residential Connection.

Charge equivalent to 1 months
recurring fee for the new service.
In the case of a new connection
the charge may not exceed the
Transactional Charge that would
be payable to establish the
service instance if an installation
was required.


assuming that is correct, then the cost should only be $37.50+GST  even if you add GST on, a charge of the price of the entire plan ($75) rather than just the wholesale input is well above the actual cost Snap have incurred in doing the change.  It's not like they are incurring the other components of the plan cost in doing this (backhaul for example)

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Ultimate Geek
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Snap Internet

  Reply # 1021124 9-Apr-2014 11:54
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Hi skewt (and others) 

As Beccara has pointed out, we get charged 1 months fee by the fibre provider (thanks very much Crown Fibre!). We elected not to pass on this charge when people upgraded their plan type, and only pass it on if a customer downgraded. So it doesn't really matter if the customer is in or out of contract, we incur costs either way. 

We'll flick this conversation off to the powers-that-be and see what they come back with. 

Cheers
Ralph







Snap

0800 BROADBAND (276 232)
www.snap.net.nz

@SnapInternet on Twitter
Snap Internet on Facebook

Our Social Media Team:
^RO Ricky - Technical Lead
^AT Ashleigh - Retail Marketing Coordinator





495 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1022461 9-Apr-2014 20:39
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If you don't want to drop it for people out of contract (or at least lower the price)
You could offer that they can re-sign up for a 12 month contract on the lower plan change



776 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Snap Internet

  Reply # 1022469 9-Apr-2014 20:52
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Hi skewt

Not a bad idea, I'll make sure that one is passed along to the commercial guys.

Cheers
Ralph




Snap

0800 BROADBAND (276 232)
www.snap.net.nz

@SnapInternet on Twitter
Snap Internet on Facebook

Our Social Media Team:
^RO Ricky - Technical Lead
^AT Ashleigh - Retail Marketing Coordinator



17 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1023744 12-Apr-2014 00:46
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If you are within your contractual obligations, then sure pass on some form of cost recovery.  If someone has lasted well past your 12/24 month contract and they would prefer to downgrade based on their usage, then i cannot understand why they would rather let a client go instead of sacrificing a months worth of income as a sign of good faith.  

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