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  Reply # 1611707 15-Aug-2016 09:41
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2degrees

  Reply # 1611727 15-Aug-2016 10:00
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Hi all

 

When a customer signed up to one of our (now retired) term plans they would have received a free phone or discount against buying a new one in store.

 

If they decide to cancel the contract before the term ends they will be bound by the Terms and Conditions of the plan they signed up to at the time of taking out that plan. More info can be found on our website here - Retired Carryover Plans/Share Everything Plans ETCs and PTCs

 

However we will waive this fee if a customer wants to take on a new plan within the last 3 months when taking on a new phone on one of our interest free Mobile Repayment Option plans - MRO plans 

 

If the OP, who I think has also posted on Facebook, would like to PM his wife's number and 4 digit PIN on here or there we'd be happy to look into this and hopefully get a mutually satisfactory outcome. :) 

 

Regards

 

^POB

 

 




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  Reply # 1611736 15-Aug-2016 10:03
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She just got off the phone with a "team leader" who advised now that the account has to be active up to and including the last day even if the 24 months of a 24 month contract has been paid. If it was terminated the day before it would incur  the $290 termination fee.

 

This is no way moral, legal, good business practice. If 24 months of a 24 month contract has been paid there is no financial loss to 2 Degrees, this stand by them is illogical and as it stands now is putting in jeopardy a lot of future business.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1611737 15-Aug-2016 10:04
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Are MikeB4's wife and the 2Degrees outlet on the same page? The sum quoted seems very similar to the early termination charge for an ADSL connection and is the cost of the connection and modem that aren't originally charged to fixed term customers.

 

What does "You can find out how much it will cost to change plans online within Your 2degrees when you select to change your plan." tell her?

 

Edit: forget above. $290 is minimum termination fee for a Share Everything Plan


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  Reply # 1611747 15-Aug-2016 10:09
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MikeB4:

 

She just got off the phone with a "team leader" who advised now that the account has to be active up to and including the last day even if the 24 months of a 24 month contract has been paid. If it was terminated the day before it would incur  the $290 termination fee.

 

This is no way moral, legal, good business practice. If 24 months of a 24 month contract has been paid there is no financial loss to 2 Degrees, this stand by them is illogical and as it stands now is putting in jeopardy a lot of future business.

 

 

 

 

Quite correct. The behaviour by 2Degrees so far is nothing short of a disgrace. PM 2degreescare and see if this company will step a couple of steps up from the bottom of the barrel. Otherwise, may I heartily suggest a stern, formal complaint because they deserve it.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1611750 15-Aug-2016 10:16
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dejadeadnz:
And frankly it saddens me to see how so people are continuing to "+1" sbiddle's statement.

 

I can see why people would +1 sbiddle because they believe in the idea of a contract being a contract.   In my experience  the telcos make the ETC fee pretty clear to the customer before they sign (rather than deceptively relying on small print).

 

As you say, the law is more complex than that. 

 

Companies break contract law all the time and get away with it and this is a planned strategy in my view. eg, our largest car parking providers breach contract law for years with respect to fair penalties but nothing has been done.  

 

The reality is that fighting these things legally costs more than it is worth. 

 

This is what I reckon MIKEB4 should do. 

 

1. Try to get 2degrees to directly waive the fee first. 

 

2. Raise a dispute with the telecoms dispute resolution service using their website. This is free and he can use the info you nicely provided. 

 

3. If that fails, go to the disputes tribunal. Costs about $45.

 

 

 

That is about as far as you can really go without paying too much . 

 

 

 

 

 

 




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  Reply # 1611754 15-Aug-2016 10:22
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She is waiting for a call from a Manager. I don't think she should hold her breath though





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 




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  Reply # 1611756 15-Aug-2016 10:28
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PM sent to @2degreesCare





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1611758 15-Aug-2016 10:36
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surfisup1000:

 

I can see why people would +1 sbiddle because they believe in the idea of a contract being a contract.   In my experience  the telcos make the ETC fee pretty clear to the customer before they sign (rather than deceptively relying on small print).

 

As you say, the law is more complex than that. 

 

Companies break contract law all the time and get away with it and this is a planned strategy in my view. eg, our largest car parking providers breach contract law for years with respect to fair penalties but nothing has been done.  

 

 

Insightful. I agree with you that a lot of these things are deliberately done to take advantage of customer inertia and, unfortunately, when it comes to matters legal, our media is notorious for failing to get all the facts across. On a wider point, it concerns me that so few people genuinely understand the power imbalance and dynamics inherent in these standard form contract situations. There's more than enough research to show that most customers have at best a very rudimentary understanding of these contract terms and if one closely examines the clauses, I'd venture to say that 95% of the population would consider them difficult to read and understand. I do acknowledge your point that ETCs are often specifically pointed out.

 

The law doesn't (ordinarily) exist to rewrite the bargains that people freely enter into. But there are rules around reading standard form agreements in favour of the offeree (i.e. customer in this case) and things like the prohibitions against penalties. Interestingly, I know for a fact that a number of people have challenged the likes of Wilson Parking at the Disputes Tribunal and won on the excess amounts of parking penalties charged.




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  Reply # 1611759 15-Aug-2016 10:41
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Am I right in thinking that these "penalties" are supposed to be based on actual loss and not a "fine" as such. Therefore if the 24 months of a 24 month contract is paid 2 degrees cannot reasonably claim actual loss.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1611767 15-Aug-2016 10:50
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MikeB4:

 

Am I right in thinking that these "penalties" are supposed to be based on actual loss and not a "fine" as such. Therefore if the 24 months of a 24 month contract is paid 2 degrees cannot reasonably claim actual loss.

 

 

 

 

Precisely. You hit that nail on the head. They can claim what is strictly in legal terms called "liquidated damages", which is a genuine estimate of the loss (it doesn't have to be forensically accurate and defensible under, say, an analysis by a chartered accountant -- just has to be realistic) that they suffered as a result of your wife's early termination. If your wife chooses to just give them all the money they are entitled to under the contract, there is no loss. Zero; nada. It's not even up for argument. Nobody can expect to get more than they would otherwise have gotten under a contract. I know the word "extortion" is a legal construct and can be seen as being pretty emotive but if 2Degrees maintains this stance, this is getting quite close in moral terms.




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  Reply # 1611772 15-Aug-2016 10:54
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dejadeadnz:

 

MikeB4:

 

Am I right in thinking that these "penalties" are supposed to be based on actual loss and not a "fine" as such. Therefore if the 24 months of a 24 month contract is paid 2 degrees cannot reasonably claim actual loss.

 

 

 

 

Precisely. You hit that nail on the head. They can claim what is strictly in legal terms called "liquidated damages", which is a genuine estimate of the loss (it doesn't have to be forensically accurate and defensible under, say, an analysis by a chartered accountant -- just has to be realistic) that they suffered as a result of your wife's early termination. If your wife chooses to just give them all the money they are entitled to under the contract, there is no loss. Zero; nada. It's not even up for argument. Nobody can expect to get more than they would otherwise have gotten under a contract. I know the word "extortion" is a legal construct and can be seen as being pretty emotive but if 2Degrees maintains this stance, this is getting quite close in moral terms.

 

 

 

 

Thanks heaps for that very much appreciated





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1611784 15-Aug-2016 11:01
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What always mystifies me about issues like this is why companies insist on shooting themselves in the foot by doggedly clinging to legal technicalities as their image and public goodwill go down the gurgler. I would think any corporate executive with a modicum of intelligence would quickly see the unfairness and bad press of this situation and would understand the far greater cost that brings. Being right is not always being in the right. There seems to be a real problem with concepts of customer service here.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1611866 15-Aug-2016 12:02
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2Degrees isn't even in the right in law. Obviously, until a court conclusively rules their approach to ETC to be unlawful, they are entitled (albeit this will be stupid) to pursue the issue and potentially force MikeB4's wife to take them to the Disputes Tribunal to get a definitive ruling that $290 for an early termination of 2 weeks in an unenforceable penalty. But I would say that any informed and reasonable person can see based on the law referenced here that 2Degrees' position in that regard is weak.

 

But that is not the worst of it. 2Degrees is, based on what we are told here, taking the nonsensical and downright unethical view that even if MikeB4's wife paid up to the end of her contract but chooses to move her phone off their network before the expiry date, the $290 remains payable. Sorry but that is just wrong in law and morals.

 

2Degrees, it's time you quite whilst you are only a couple of marathon laps behind. It might surprise some that quite a lot of people with relevant professional education/standing in matters to do with legal compliance are reading this thread. Some of this has to do with me pointing it out; for others, it's simply the reality that this is a popular site. The damage you are doing to yourself far exceeds the measly $290 that you are wanting to rip out of someone.

 

What a joke -- on principle I won't ever touch your company's products and services again.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1611868 15-Aug-2016 12:08
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I can sort of understand 2Degrees point of view, the customer is wanting to terminate "early", they have incurred costs so are rightly enforcing that loss, the issue comes as to value of the loss. If they allow customers to terminate 1 month early with no penalty, what about the customers terminating 2 months early, where is the line drawn as to when and how much to charge? They are taking the stance that the line is drawn at the contract date and for the amount stipulated in the terms of the contract, as pointed out by others, this appears oppressive.

 

I think this is where the banks / finance companies actually have it pretty much right in regards to calculating loss for early termination. There they can charge the difference between the contract rate and the current rate for the same term, across the term remaining under contract (so breaking a 3 year fixed rate of say 5% after 2 years, leaves 1 year to go. Current lending on 1 year money is 4%, so the bank can charge the equivalent of 1 year at 1% on the amount being repaid as that is effectively their loss).

 

at 23 months into a 24 month contract, surely the loss would only be 1/24th of the ETC ($ 290/24 x 1 = $ 12.08)?

 

 

 

 


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