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  Reply # 1661881 1-Nov-2016 09:52
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While I respect the view of @edwinov it's not my view. Maybe at the low end, but highly skilled, experienced people in most areas of technology can find good work with decent pay.





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  Reply # 1662152 1-Nov-2016 17:16
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BlinkyBill:

 

IT work in NZ sucks. I come from an embedded background myself, C/C++/assembler but also a lot of C# in more recent years,a lot of Delphi as well in the past. The ONLY thing Kiwi companies seem to be looking for are people fresh out of polytech who know MVC/ASP.NET, JavaScript and the whole Angular.js and Node.js hell. 

 

 

 

So basically Kiwis are not looking for PROGRAMMERS (as in: a smart person who can solve problems and can translate the solutions into algorithms and code those), no, Kiwis want code-zombies who can glue together 3rd party libraries and generate a website.

 


This comment shows why some people struggle in the market. I hire people who are not technology bigots. If JavaScript is what our customers want, well, that's what we give them. That's business.

For me, the ability to produce effective and efficient outcomes is the most important thing. The basics of discipline, accuracy, lateral thinking and problem solving are more important than a specific language. I get lots of "I do C# because that's the best thing out there" (or whatever it is) - these bigoted types aren't successful in my company at least.

Bit surprised about the salary numbers. I pay graduates $60k, 3-4 years experience $90-100k, more senior about $120-130k. Principal consultants up to about $180k. That's in the development field.

For good, open-minded, customer-focused people there are lots of jobs out there.

 

I ONLY struggle in the Kiwi market. I'm from Europe originally, have 18 years of experience as a senior software developer, worked at high tech companies such as Philips (televisions), Philips Medical (MRI scanners), ASML (wafersteppers) and Comprion (SIM card certification & standardization test equipment). All high tech. RTOS, VxWorks, Unix, etc. No problems.

 

In New Zealand: nada. The difference between working in Europe and NZ is that in Europe they want smart problem solvers. In NZ they wanted people who can glue together MVC/ASP.NET with JavaScript and TypeScript and Angular and Node and some more web technologies. It's low tech and they will never hire someone with a high tech background.

 

In New Zealand it's not about WHAT you know but WHO you know. 

 

Unfortunately.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1662182 1-Nov-2016 18:18
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Edwinov, I see this thinking all too often. This isn't Europe, we don't make tv's or SIM cards. In Europe there is plenty of web development, the 'low tech', and there is also enough market size to support higher tech stuff. We don't have that size; I guarantee the ratio of our low to high tech is the same as in Europe.

Tell me, if you were in business, and your customers wanted 'x' would you hire people who think 'x' is beneath them?

I see no connection between the development domain being high tech or low tech, and being smart enough to solve problems. Quite frankly, it is an elitist, even snobbish, attitude to think there is. And in a smaller market one cannot really afford to be elitist.

I 100% disagree with your assertion it's not what you know it's who you know. Instead, I suggest to you that you don't know what it is that employers want. An employer is a customer - of your skills. Customers don't buy what they don't need.

When I'm looking for developers I prioritise flexibility and adaptability first, strong disciplines second, problem solving and lateral thinking third, and specific expertise last. I'm not the only employer who thinks that way.




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  Reply # 1662187 1-Nov-2016 18:33
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BlinkyBill: Edwinov, I see this thinking all too often. This isn't Europe, we don't make tv's or SIM cards. In Europe there is plenty of web development, the 'low tech', and there is also enough market size to support higher tech stuff. We don't have that size; I guarantee the ratio of our low to high tech is the same as in Europe.

Tell me, if you were in business, and your customers wanted 'x' would you hire people who think 'x' is beneath them?

I see no connection between the development domain being high tech or low tech, and being smart enough to solve problems. Quite frankly, it is an elitist, even snobbish, attitude to think there is. And in a smaller market one cannot really afford to be elitist.

I 100% disagree with your assertion it's not what you know it's who you know. Instead, I suggest to you that you don't know what it is that employers want. An employer is a customer - of your skills. Customers don't buy what they don't need.

When I'm looking for developers I prioritise flexibility and adaptability first, strong disciplines second, problem solving and lateral thinking third, and specific expertise last. I'm not the only employer who thinks that way.

 

My experience is in C/C++/C#/assembler/Pascal/Delphi/RTOS/embedded/GUI/WinForms/WPF/WCF. What I do NOT have is experience in MVC/ASP.NET or JavaScript or Node or Angular or BootStrap or whatever fancy names they all have. Result: NO job for me in NZ. They ONLY want JavaScript and ASP.NET etc.

 

I'm looking on seek at this very moment, keywords C#. What do they want: C#, ASP.NET, JavaScript, Angular, NoSQL, Node.JS, Socket.IO, Angular, Express, MVC TypeScript, SQL Server.

 

This all means only ONE thing: they all want a website and your job is to glue the lot together using the entity framework.

 

I'm from Christchurch, here are/were only a FEW companies that have non-website related work: Commtest (was owned by South Canterbury Finance, now moved to 'Murica), Trimble (not hiring), Telogis (hiring but never me), Tait (not hiring), Aranz (hiring, made it to the last 2 at some stage but didn't get the job).

 

It's a dead end.


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  Reply # 1662208 1-Nov-2016 19:24
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edwinov:

 

BlinkyBill: Edwinov, I see this thinking all too often. This isn't Europe, we don't make tv's or SIM cards. In Europe there is plenty of web development, the 'low tech', and there is also enough market size to support higher tech stuff. We don't have that size; I guarantee the ratio of our low to high tech is the same as in Europe.

Tell me, if you were in business, and your customers wanted 'x' would you hire people who think 'x' is beneath them?

I see no connection between the development domain being high tech or low tech, and being smart enough to solve problems. Quite frankly, it is an elitist, even snobbish, attitude to think there is. And in a smaller market one cannot really afford to be elitist.

I 100% disagree with your assertion it's not what you know it's who you know. Instead, I suggest to you that you don't know what it is that employers want. An employer is a customer - of your skills. Customers don't buy what they don't need.

When I'm looking for developers I prioritise flexibility and adaptability first, strong disciplines second, problem solving and lateral thinking third, and specific expertise last. I'm not the only employer who thinks that way.

 

My experience is in C/C++/C#/assembler/Pascal/Delphi/RTOS/embedded/GUI/WinForms/WPF/WCF. What I do NOT have is experience in MVC/ASP.NET or JavaScript or Node or Angular or BootStrap or whatever fancy names they all have. Result: NO job for me in NZ. They ONLY want JavaScript and ASP.NET etc.

 

I'm looking on seek at this very moment, keywords C#. What do they want: C#, ASP.NET, JavaScript, Angular, NoSQL, Node.JS, Socket.IO, Angular, Express, MVC TypeScript, SQL Server.

 

This all means only ONE thing: they all want a website and your job is to glue the lot together using the entity framework.

 

I'm from Christchurch, here are/were only a FEW companies that have non-website related work: Commtest (was owned by South Canterbury Finance, now moved to 'Murica), Trimble (not hiring), Telogis (hiring but never me), Tait (not hiring), Aranz (hiring, made it to the last 2 at some stage but didn't get the job).

 

It's a dead end.

 

 

 

 

Hmm, interesting view on the market.  I am the lead developer on a large brand-new project using primarily C# and ASP.NET following the MVC pattern.  However just because we use those technologies does not mean we are developing a website - on the contrary we are developing RESTful web API based applications utilising an ESB tool over microservices running .Net Core, all running in Docker containers.  All these follow the same pattern.  All use C#. 

SQL Server is skill-set in its own right, from DBA to ETL to data warehouse developer.

I think you need to expand your view of what's possible with the tools and technologies listed, and hopefully you will find some work.


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  Reply # 1673131 17-Nov-2016 21:04
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My understanding is that Xero has the widest stack, though it's core is mostly on Microsoft.

 

Workday is a decent firm, it's MS stack too IIRC.

 

Probably you should be able to find some SAP, Oracle jobs. Decent amount of Salesforce consultancies.

 

If you want serious work, have a look at Movio - they are hiring functional programmers with Clojure, Golang, etc experience. Not sure what type of work they offer or who their clients are.

 

 

 

Also, there is one rocket company somewhere around Napier. Might try your luck.

 

Weta Caves partnered with Magic Leap if you think you can handle bleeding edge :)

 

 


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  Reply # 1673167 17-Nov-2016 21:27
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BlinkyBill:

 

IT work in NZ sucks. I come from an embedded background myself, C/C++/assembler but also a lot of C# in more recent years,a lot of Delphi as well in the past. The ONLY thing Kiwi companies seem to be looking for are people fresh out of polytech who know MVC/ASP.NET, JavaScript and the whole Angular.js and Node.js hell. 

 

 

 

So basically Kiwis are not looking for PROGRAMMERS (as in: a smart person who can solve problems and can translate the solutions into algorithms and code those), no, Kiwis want code-zombies who can glue together 3rd party libraries and generate a website.

 


This comment shows why some people struggle in the market. I hire people who are not technology bigots. If JavaScript is what our customers want, well, that's what we give them. That's business.

For me, the ability to produce effective and efficient outcomes is the most important thing. The basics of discipline, accuracy, lateral thinking and problem solving are more important than a specific language. I get lots of "I do C# because that's the best thing out there" (or whatever it is) - these bigoted types aren't successful in my company at least.

Bit surprised about the salary numbers. I pay graduates $60k, 3-4 years experience $90-100k, more senior about $120-130k. Principal consultants up to about $180k. That's in the development field.

For good, open-minded, customer-focused people there are lots of jobs out there.

 

Which Bachelor's degree do the graduates you hire come from? Is it more in the BCom sector, or Computer Science, or in the engineering department? While all three are in different departments, some of the courses do interrelate with each other so just wondering.





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  Reply # 1696478 30-Dec-2016 12:26
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If I had one thing to say about IT work in New Zealand it's that it's generally managed by people who do not understand the very thing they are managing.  There are some very good IT skills in New Zealand yet unfortunately, they are grossly underpaid.  For an IT manager to pull down 130-160k and know nothing and an well-seasoned IT techie to barely break 100k... it's just screwed up.  In the security space, you can earn quite a bit but, you are also subject to being aggravated by having your recommendations vetoed by management.  Naturally, went it goes pear-shaped, you're the 1st person they jump on.

 

Other than that, there is a wealth of opportunity in the IT field and it's going to continue to grow in spite of the government outsourcing everything.


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  Reply # 1696484 30-Dec-2016 13:11
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edwinov:

 

BlinkyBill: Edwinov, I see this thinking all too often. This isn't Europe, we don't make tv's or SIM cards. In Europe there is plenty of web development, the 'low tech', and there is also enough market size to support higher tech stuff. We don't have that size; I guarantee the ratio of our low to high tech is the same as in Europe.

Tell me, if you were in business, and your customers wanted 'x' would you hire people who think 'x' is beneath them?

I see no connection between the development domain being high tech or low tech, and being smart enough to solve problems. Quite frankly, it is an elitist, even snobbish, attitude to think there is. And in a smaller market one cannot really afford to be elitist.

I 100% disagree with your assertion it's not what you know it's who you know. Instead, I suggest to you that you don't know what it is that employers want. An employer is a customer - of your skills. Customers don't buy what they don't need.

When I'm looking for developers I prioritise flexibility and adaptability first, strong disciplines second, problem solving and lateral thinking third, and specific expertise last. I'm not the only employer who thinks that way.

 

My experience is in C/C++/C#/assembler/Pascal/Delphi/RTOS/embedded/GUI/WinForms/WPF/WCF. What I do NOT have is experience in MVC/ASP.NET or JavaScript or Node or Angular or BootStrap or whatever fancy names they all have. Result: NO job for me in NZ. They ONLY want JavaScript and ASP.NET etc.

 

I'm looking on seek at this very moment, keywords C#. What do they want: C#, ASP.NET, JavaScript, Angular, NoSQL, Node.JS, Socket.IO, Angular, Express, MVC TypeScript, SQL Server.

 

This all means only ONE thing: they all want a website and your job is to glue the lot together using the entity framework.

 

I'm from Christchurch, here are/were only a FEW companies that have non-website related work: Commtest (was owned by South Canterbury Finance, now moved to 'Murica), Trimble (not hiring), Telogis (hiring but never me), Tait (not hiring), Aranz (hiring, made it to the last 2 at some stage but didn't get the job).

 

It's a dead end.

 

 

 

 

Hi edwinov, 

 

Reading your post it sounds like you are a developer that hasn't made the jump to Web. Fair enough if that's not what you are into, but you need to be aware that that's where the market is going. Of course, there will still need older/bigger companies offering desktop based products but you must have noticed everything that's going on in the Web space right now..

 

Now, with the gain in popularity of all the front end technologies you quoted above, we are going towards a split between backend and frontend, with some companies hiring specialist developers for one area or another. This means that there are still opportunities for people to work in C# in the Web space. This sometimes requires that you are familiar with ASP.Net Web API, which I suggest you take a look at as it is in high demand.

 

Problem in the IT sector, especially development, is that everything is moving super fast and you have to keep up if you want to stay employable. If you are not interested in working with Javascript/Node or anything Web Related that's fine, it's your right. But this will probably limit your opportunities in the market and that's not likely to get better as time passes.


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