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Topic # 83145 11-May-2011 13:51
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Been looking for some info on domain name registrations and the legalities surrounding web hosting providers, and web designers registering domain names on behalf of a customer which a lot of smaller providers do manually through third party entities.

My question is, when a provider registers a domain on your behalf and registers their company as the legal owner, registrant contact and administrative contact as well as technical contact what rights do you have as the client and the person paying the domain fees to that domain. None I would suspect

Is it legal for providers to do this without consulting the customer, I think it's wrong and misleading given the fact that they intentionally do not supply the customer with any information such as a UDAI or Whois details of the domain, and they intentionally mislead the client to thinking that the client actually owns the domain name.
The general non techie person out there would not even know that a Public Whois even exists.

I have seen a lot of this and those intentionally doing it need a backside thrashing.

Ok so what steps would the real domain owner take to have the Whois information updated to the rightful owners details when ....
The service provider does not respond to UDAI requests
The service provider do not respond to requests for Registrant and Administrative details to be changed
The service provider does not respond at all .... A lot of promises but no response

Its logistical because if the real domain owner makes a UDAI request on the third party website it goes to the service provider because they are the administrative contact. This is got ILLEGAL written all over it.

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  Reply # 467928 11-May-2011 13:53
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To my knowledge, this is not allowed! I would suggest taking a look at the Domain Name Commissions website (dnc.org.nz) and maybe even getting in touch with them.

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  Reply # 467929 11-May-2011 13:56
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Yes they legally have to provide you with the UDAI within a certain amount of time, its either 24 or 48 hours i think.

If they don't then contact the Domain Name Commission

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 467940 11-May-2011 14:49

jbard: Yes they legally have to provide you with the UDAI within a certain amount of time, its either 24 or 48 hours i think.


If they don't then contact the Domain Name Commission


 

I don't think there is any fixed time, but it has to be a reasonable period of time. eg. Many web designers are one man bands, and they may go on holiday for a week, so it could take them longer to supply something, than a small to medium company with lots of staff. Having said that they should have a way of automatically getting the UDAI

With ownership, I beleive that the domain must always be registered in the name of the owner. However I have seen many domains registered in the name of the web designer.

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  Reply # 467941 11-May-2011 14:56
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The technical and the Administrative contact can be anyone and usually is the company who registers your domain if you don't specify it but the owner details have to be the actual registrant of the domains.

For Example

for geekzone.co.nz

registrant_contact_name: Mauricio Freitas

the "registrant_contact_name" is really the only thing that matters. After a domain has been registered any of the other contact details can be changed by the owner except for this field.

If you asked a third party to register a domain for you and they use their own details instead of you the only thing you can do about it is go to the DNC (http://dnc.org.nz/story/policy) and lay a complaint.

I wouldn't blame the actual registrar itself


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  Reply # 467958 11-May-2011 15:59
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The service provider (if they are also a .nz registrar) is required to provide the UDAI to the registered owner.  Domainz tried to pull this on me, and say a reseller could only provide it.  Once I mentioned this was against the .nz charter, I had the UDAI in 5 minutes.

It becomes tricky if the company isn't the "legal" owner according to whois, you may have to take this further with the Domain Name Commission, or even court, to prove you are the legal owner of said domain.

Good luck.




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  Reply # 468258 12-May-2011 13:02
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The reason it's common place for a designer/developer company to do this is pure convenience in making changes.

I reckon the bottom line is that if you can prove you paid for you're the real owner, you should easily win in court if it came to it.

It would only come to down to that if your provider was acting unethically, which should be pretty rare.



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  Reply # 468498 12-May-2011 21:47
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Hi all thanks for your feedback your comments are appreciated and I think the next step would be to contact the Domain Commissioner.

This is not actually my domain, the topic came up up during an unrelated conversation with a customer of ours, I will add we are not in the technology industry but I do have some knowledge on hosting and domain management through our own provider, initially our customer was asking about who we used as our hosting and domain provider as they were unhappy with their web developer who also provided their hosting services and managed their domain, their hosting and domain services are provided by other third party providers. After running a Whois check on the domain I questioned our customer (the supposed domain owner) about domain details or records that they have in their possesion they were never provided any so its escalated from there.

@ jbard + robbyp - both your comments are valid in terms of sufficient time to provide a UDAI key however 6 years is probably a fair waiting period

@ LennonNZ - Totally agree with your comments yes definately not the Registrars fault my focus of blame would be on the Registrant the person who registered and entered the Registrant details at the time of registration, however the customer must take some responsibility in reseraching and understanding domain name registration and even the terms and condtions set out by the provider, if any.

@ nate - I think your comments pretty much sum up my views and the tricky legal interpretaions

@ Ragnor - Convenience in making changes should not reflect on who the actual registerd domain owner should be, Domain details should be provisioned so domain information can be changed, deleted, updated by either the provider or the customer I am sure all would agree, our hosting provider/domain manager has given us the provisions to change/ delete/ update our own domain details or at our request they will do this for us.

Looking back at the actions of our own hosting provider/domain manager they were quite strigent in ensuring that the domain owner details were correct and that we understood how important these details were in terms of legal standing, they took the time to explain to us the importance of correct registration details so kudos to them for good customer relations and support, a good working relationship since 2004

A couple of short suggestions to those registering domain names

Ensure the provider or person registering on your behalf is or has the correct registration details and do not accept any other reccomendations that they need to register your domain using their details.
Once registration is complete alway double check the Whois records to ensure the details are correct most registrars have a grace period for domains to be cancelled or corrected this grace period should be passed on by the provider/person manging your domain.
Ensure that you are provided with a UDAI within a reasonable time frame this should be kept in a safe place, its your key to keeping your registered domain name in your control

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  Reply # 468700 13-May-2011 12:40
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One thing to consider from the developers point of view, handing over the UDAI or even setting the registrant details can result in them not getting paid for the domain that they registered for the client and having no leverage to ensure that it happens.

I wouldn't do either until at least the initial registration has been paid, at least that way if I'm stiffed on a later renewal it's not quite such a pain. 




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  Reply # 468728 13-May-2011 13:57

Ragnor: The reason it's common place for a designer/developer company to do this is pure convenience in making changes.

I reckon the bottom line is that if you can prove you paid for you're the real owner, you should easily win in court if it came to it.


It would only come to down to that if your provider was acting unethically, which should be pretty rare.


 

I don't agree with that, from my understanding the domain name must be register in the name of the proper registrant.  The web designer can add their details to the technical /admin details associated for the domain, and I beleive they can also use their email address in the registrants field, if their client wants and agrees to them  fully managing it. However all the contact details under the registrants section must be that of the actual domain registrant. It doesn't make it any harder or any easier not doing this for the person administering the domain. 

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  Reply # 468730 13-May-2011 13:59

sleemanj: One thing to consider from the developers point of view, handing over the UDAI or even setting the registrant details can result in them not getting paid for the domain that they registered for the client and having no leverage to ensure that it happens.


I wouldn't do either until at least the initial registration has been paid, at least that way if I'm stiffed on a later renewal it's not quite such a pain. 


 

I believe you can't ever withhold the UDAI for any reason,even for non payment. That is why you should probably make sure they pay you before you register it on behalf of a client. You do however have 5 days to cancel the domain after it is first registered.

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  Reply # 468733 13-May-2011 14:01

JAGGZ: Hi all thanks for your feedback your comments are appreciated and I think the next step would be to contact the Domain Commissioner.


Ensure that you are provided with a UDAI within a reasonable time frame this should be kept in a safe place, its your key to keeping your registered domain name in your control


 

I believe the UDAI does expire after a period of time, so I don't think there is any need to keep it. AT least I have found that to be the case, but it may depend on the provider. You just need to regenerate a new one if you need to transfer it.

 

 

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  Reply # 468740 13-May-2011 14:13
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The UDAI does not expire at all.

A Registrar can generate a new one at any time and when the domain is moved to a new registrar the UDAI is changed as well automatically.





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  Reply # 468758 13-May-2011 14:36

LennonNZ: The UDAI does not expire at all.

A Registrar can generate a new one at any time and when the domain is moved to a new registrar the UDAI is changed as well automatically.







 

I have found it can change when something is done to the domain. If it didn't why would a UDAI become invalid, if a new UDAI hadn't been regenerated for the domain?

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  Reply # 468787 13-May-2011 14:59
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It depends on the registrar. The UDIA shouldn't change unless its moved to another Registrar or the Registrar specifically asks for it to change.

I know some registrars when you ask for the UDAI they will get a newly generated one instead of giving you the existing one.

Thanks


 

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  Reply # 468792 13-May-2011 15:07

LennonNZ: It depends on the registrar. The UDIA shouldn't change unless its moved to another Registrar or the Registrar specifically asks for it to change.

I know some registrars when you ask for the UDAI they will get a newly generated one instead of giving you the existing one.

Thanks



 


 

The registrars I have used always generate a new one. I am not aware of any that would just send you the old one. I do recall being told by my registrar that the codes expired after a period of time, but they may have been referring to international auth codes. I think it all depends on the registrars own systems. I think for security it is a good idea for the codes to expire, in case it gets into the wrong hands.

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