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  #797514 11-Apr-2013 00:09
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macuser: I think there is a pretty clear difference between abusive and assertive. Why should anyone be punished for having a legitimate opinion, and expressing that opinion in non abusive language.

Surely nobody thinks that you will be considered a bully for expressing genuine concerns/differing opinions.

The problem is with people who have nothing to add to the conversation except swear words and wishing death.


Well I guess I don't consider what went on at my high school assertive. Life is full of adversity, we seem to be being encouraged to insulate our kids to the point where they can't understand it and therefore have no coping methods to deal with it. Obviously there are scales, but picking up a nickname which isn't nice, at school which you get called for a while. doesn't constitute "bullying" in my book, not compared to what I went through (Which included that and much more) at school. 

Yes I agree sustained abuse is terrible whether it be facebook, sms etc.





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  #797530 11-Apr-2013 07:08
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macuser: I think there is a pretty clear difference between abusive and assertive. 


To you, maybe. Not to the politician being called out, not to the teenager feeling harassed on Facebook. And that's just one of the reasons why this law is so dangerous - it may be in the public interest for me to air Joe Politician's dirty laundry on the internet, but he will be able to use this law to quickly and easily get it removed.

Not to mention how wrong-headed it is to make ISPs responsible for taking it down.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. After all, the US DMCA is a shining example of how such a law can benefit society, with carefully thought out, narrowly defined reasons for requesting a takedown, and a thorough but red-tape-free process for challenging such.




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  #797533 11-Apr-2013 07:20
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Bullying be it Cyber, phone, school yard or the street is assault. It should be treated as such but additional powers assigned to the Courts for Cyber/phone to order it's take down and the perpetrators accounts closed. For repeat offenders prohibition on obtain new accounts.




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  #797536 11-Apr-2013 07:30
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KiwiNZ:
alasta:
macuser: I don't really see why being a dickhead on the internet should be treated any different than being a dickhead on the street.


Is that illegal? I wouldn't have thought so but I'd be willing to stand corrected.

Back when I was at school there was a saying about sticks and stones...


my youngest son was badly bullied at school, why? Because he is intelligent. We had to change schools to one site a distance away.

I can tell you that the saying you are referring to, "sticks and stones...." is bollocks.


hang in there one day your son will drive an audi and those bullies will be working in the warehouse




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #797558 11-Apr-2013 08:46
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the problem is who decides the what is obscene, objectionable etc , which is why these laws are hard to enforce. 




Common sense is not as common as you think.


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  #797562 11-Apr-2013 08:52
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vexxxboy:
the problem is who decides the what is obscene, objectionable etc , which is why these laws are hard to enforce. 


The Courts, that is why we have them




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  #797565 11-Apr-2013 08:59
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KiwiNZ:
vexxxboy:
the problem is who decides the what is obscene, objectionable etc , which is why these laws are hard to enforce. 


The Courts, that is why we have them


So... every time someone feels upset about something that someone wrote on the internet, we all need to lawyer up and head to court to sort it out? That sounds like a solution every lawyer in New Zealand will love, and certainly cannot be abused by the rich and powerful at the expense of the poor and weak.

Besides, if the answer is 'take it court' then you can already do that without introducing a new law, which brings us back to 'what is the point, other than to be seen to be doing something?'




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  #797570 11-Apr-2013 09:07
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SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ:
vexxxboy:
the problem is who decides the what is obscene, objectionable etc , which is why these laws are hard to enforce. 


The Courts, that is why we have them


So... every time someone feels upset about something that someone wrote on the internet, we all need to lawyer up and head to court to sort it out? That sounds like a solution every lawyer in New Zealand will love, and certainly cannot be abused by the rich and powerful at the expense of the poor and weak.

Besides, if the answer is 'take it court' then you can already do that without introducing a new law, which brings us back to 'what is the point, other than to be seen to be doing something?'


Frivolous or recidivist litigation can be sorted by the courts. To be blunt this crap is taking lives, New Zealand already has an abysmal track record for protecting it's young citizens, in action or apathy will only worsen this record and lose more lives.

New laws or amendments to existing will be required in order to allow appropriate authorities to act and the courts to apply sanctions.




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  #797571 11-Apr-2013 09:10
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I think everyone supports laws that protect lives. What people here seems to be discussing is why we need a law specifically aimed at technology when technology is not the problem.

People who do not understand technology writing laws that impact negatively is bad for society in general.




 

 

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  #797574 11-Apr-2013 09:18
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KiwiNZ: 

Frivolous or recidivist litigation can be sorted by the courts.


No, they won't. Because the law will be abused by much better lawyers than the people the law is brought to bear against can afford. Frivolous/recidivist litigants get away with it everywhere else, why would we be special?

The answer is not a new law. The answer is dealing with the problem using the tools already available to deal with the problem. If I can be blunt, 'protecting' people from bullying by attempting to keep bullies away from them will work about as well today as it ever has. Hiding from problems never solves them.

Fixing societal problems by continually adding layer upon layer of 'and this is illegal' laws is precisely the same as fixing that critical system in the corner that was built by that one guy 10 years ago, who wrote it in ALGOL because he thought it was cool, and you can't replace it because the whole company will fall apart, nor can you migrate it to new hardware because the compiler won't run on a modern OS, and so instead you just keep on adding more and more cruft on top of it to keep it wheezing along and eventually, BOOM.






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  #797578 11-Apr-2013 09:31
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SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 

Frivolous or recidivist litigation can be sorted by the courts.


No, they won't. Because the law will be abused by much better lawyers than the people the law is brought to bear against can afford. Frivolous/recidivist litigants get away with it everywhere else, why would we be special?




I wholeheartedly agreed with all of your post but thought I would post a comment specifically in reply to this particular section because I have sensed sentiment in this thread multiple times that indicates that only poor people get bullied and only the rich do the bullying, which is actually far from the truth in my experiences. 

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  #797583 11-Apr-2013 09:38
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SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 

Frivolous or recidivist litigation can be sorted by the courts.


No, they won't. Because the law will be abused by much better lawyers than the people the law is brought to bear against can afford. Frivolous/recidivist litigants get away with it everywhere else, why would we be special?

The answer is not a new law. The answer is dealing with the problem using the tools already available to deal with the problem. If I can be blunt, 'protecting' people from bullying by attempting to keep bullies away from them will work about as well today as it ever has. Hiding from problems never solves them.

Fixing societal problems by continually adding layer upon layer of 'and this is illegal' laws is precisely the same as fixing that critical system in the corner that was built by that one guy 10 years ago, who wrote it in ALGOL because he thought it was cool, and you can't replace it because the whole company will fall apart, nor can you migrate it to new hardware because the compiler won't run on a modern OS, and so instead you just keep on adding more and more cruft on top of it to keep it wheezing along and eventually, BOOM.




The problem and impact is far greater than a trivial IT issue.




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  #797588 11-Apr-2013 09:40
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networkn: 

I wholeheartedly agreed with all of your post but thought I would post a comment specifically in reply to this particular section because I have sensed sentiment in this thread multiple times that indicates that only poor people get bullied and only the rich do the bullying, which is actually far from the truth in my experiences. 


That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that the law would be abused by rich people, at the expense of poor people.




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  #797589 11-Apr-2013 09:42
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SaltyNZ:
networkn: 

I wholeheartedly agreed with all of your post but thought I would post a comment specifically in reply to this particular section because I have sensed sentiment in this thread multiple times that indicates that only poor people get bullied and only the rich do the bullying, which is actually far from the truth in my experiences. 


That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that the law would be abused by rich people, at the expense of poor people.


Abused how?


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  #797591 11-Apr-2013 09:46
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KiwiNZ: 

The problem and impact is far greater than a trivial IT issue.


Of course it is. I use it as an illustration of what my issue with this law is, in a way that that the Geekzone community might easily identify with.

The 'trivial IT issue' is only trivial to you. It's not trivial to the people whose jobs are basically stopped until the old box is working again, which is just another aspect of this illustration of why the law is bad, which I did not touch on in my previous post: some idiot writing rubbish on Facebook about me is trivial to me. It's not to some people, but that's not my job to decide any more than it's your job to decide that the IT issue is trivial, when it doesn't affect you.






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