NSA PRISM discussion

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#849017 3-Jul-2013 23:40

NZ should take this as an opportunity to become world leaders in information legislation
& taking a stand like how we did with the US years ago & nuclear warships.

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freitasm

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#849062 4-Jul-2013 08:49

For those who think that governments can do no wrong:

Clapper Apologizes For Answer On NSA Data Collection.

After telling Congress that the National Security Agency does not collect data on millions of Americans, National Intelligence Director James Clapper has issued an apology, telling Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein that his statement was "clearly erroneous."

When Clapper was asked by Sen. Ron Wyden in March if the NSA collects "any type of data at all on millions, or hundreds of millions of Americans," Clapper answered, "No sir," before adding, "Not wittingly."

Calazza says Wyden "is deeply troubled by a number of misleading statements senior officials have made about domestic surveillance in the past several years. He will continue pushing for an open and honest debate."

So he lied to the people responsible for overseeing things. Sure, trust your government with everything.

When are people going to realise that being a patriot doesn't mean trusting a government. Government and nation are different things and concepts.

lostangel

163 posts

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#849130 4-Jul-2013 10:23

Ok I can't help but chime in here.

Everyone who is thinking nsa/fbi have no direct access to those mentioned companies, think again.

Why?

Those companies use ssl/tls for communications, yet nsa wants to know(and do know) whats in those communications.
Assuming AES isn't broken, this means direct access to the unencrypted data is required.

Carnivore(the long running spy on everything system) seems to now have input also from prism.

The scale of the privacy breach of all these companies is enormous.

US govt have always aimed high with their intellegence programs. I'm amased they manage to get other countries onboard with their programs(incl NZ)

bigal_nz

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#849137 4-Jul-2013 10:46

freitasm: I did not mention specific cases such as IRD in my reply. Please do not put that as my opinion.Your argument is automatically invalidate because of such fallacy.

Some trust governments blindly and this is bad. No power should be given without corresponding control and limits.

Once you give up rights to a government it is pretty hard to get them back.

The government says intelligence collection is needed to prevent a terror attack like the Boston bombings. But all the intelligence the USA collects didn't prevent that happening. The argument is at minimum invalid if not complete FUD.

Salty was going on about Taxes and NSA. Read the full thread.Your argument is automatically invalidate.

NZ is not even close to a country with no controls or limits. Get a grip.

Yes they didnt prevent boston - they will never stop everything - but you want to make it harder for them...they may as well packup and go home.

freitasm

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#849142 4-Jul-2013 10:58

bigal_nz: Salty was going on about Taxes and NSA. Read the full thread.Your argument is automatically invalidate.

You used my name as a vocative:

"Mauricio: Thinking that the gcsb or nsa will mine data and pass it on to all these other government agencies like ird for unpaid tax is conspiracy. I have never heard such rubbish."

So reading that it makes it look like I am the one who brough the IRD into the context, which was not the case.

If you are going to call people then at least use the proper context.

bigal_nz

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#849147 4-Jul-2013 11:08

freitasm:
bigal_nz: Salty was going on about Taxes and NSA. Read the full thread.Your argument is automatically invalidate.

You used my name as a vocative:

"Mauricio: Thinking that the gcsb or nsa will mine data and pass it on to all these other government agencies like ird for unpaid tax is conspiracy. I have never heard such rubbish."

So reading that it makes it look like I am the one who brough the IRD into the context, which was not the case.

If you are going to call people then at least use the proper context.

You were the one that made a post quoting Salty where he talked about taxes.......

SaltyNZ

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#849149 4-Jul-2013 11:09

bigal_nz:

NZ is not even close to a country with no controls or limits. Get a grip.

'No limits' is exactly what the new legislation provides legally, as opposed to 'just do it secretly and hope nobody can prove it' as we are now.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

bigal_nz

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#849161 4-Jul-2013 11:16

SaltyNZ:
bigal_nz:

NZ is not even close to a country with no controls or limits. Get a grip.

'No limits' is exactly what the new legislation provides legally, as opposed to 'just do it secretly and hope nobody can prove it' as we are now.

Your idea of debating everything in parliament is a fantastic idea. The whole world will know about it by the time they finally get whatever information they want. Absolutely brilliant idea.

hamish225

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#849162 4-Jul-2013 11:17

Dairyxox: NZ should take this as an opportunity to become world leaders in information legislation
& taking a stand like how we did with the US years ago & nuclear warships.

Dairyxox for PM!

*Insert big spe*dtest result here*

freitasm

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#849163 4-Jul-2013 11:19

bigal_nz:
freitasm:
bigal_nz: Salty was going on about Taxes and NSA. Read the full thread.Your argument is automatically invalidate.

You used my name as a vocative:

"Mauricio: Thinking that the gcsb or nsa will mine data and pass it on to all these other government agencies like ird for unpaid tax is conspiracy. I have never heard such rubbish."

So reading that it makes it look like I am the one who brough the IRD into the context, which was not the case.

If you are going to call people then at least use the proper context.

You were the one that made a post quoting Salty where he talked about taxes.......

Talk about a fallacy.

I was quoting YOU who quoted Salty. My reply was about YOUR reply to Salty and the quote was in context.

bigal_nz

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#849166 4-Jul-2013 11:22

So read your posts that contain quoted quotes then, to which replies are directed at or Your argument is automatically invalidate!

freitasm

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#849178 4-Jul-2013 11:30

You missed the point. I can go back and remove Salty quote from that reply because it won't change a thing. My reply is still aimed at your comments and do not in any way involved "IRD" as you claim.

At no moment I put that claim in and quoting YOUR reply which contain someone else's quote doesn't mean I agree with that.

You are implying that because my argument is opposite to yours and I am quoting two sides then I am automatically supporting the other side.

The logic failure is astounding.

bigal_nz

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#849188 4-Jul-2013 11:43

freitasm: You missed the point. I can go back and remove Salty quote from that reply because it won't change a thing. My reply is still aimed at your comments and do not in any way involved "IRD" as you claim.

At no moment I put that claim in and quoting YOUR reply which contain someone else's quote doesn't mean I agree with that.

You are implying that because my argument is opposite to yours and I am quoting two sides then I am automatically supporting the other side.

The logic failure is astounding.

freitasm: Very different things. One thing is "conspiracy theory"

You missed the point. My reply was aimed at your quote re conspiracy, which was in reply to my post above about JFK shooting (which was in reply to salty who was talking about NSA/Tax).

I was being sarcastic about JFK conspiracy with grassy knoll and him thinking (by NSA/tax data sharing) that he must think there is a government conspiracy to spy on its citizens.

The logic failure is astounding and your argument is automatically invalidate.

dauckland

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#850933 8-Jul-2013 15:32

This is obviously a very heated debate, and so it should be.
Sometimes the easier question to pose is in face to the reverse of what has been asked so far.
So rather than asking "what are they spying on and to prevent what" is to ask "What have they stopped by spying on everything":
- they haven't stopped Boston bombings,
- they haven stopped 52 incidences of gun violence on schools across the US
- they HAVE stopped people who posted silly comments on their Twitter feed from clearing immigration in the US

There are probable more of those and I do not want to go into Kim's situation and the fact that Uruwera case might have been also affected by the 5 year information. Both were assessed as illegal.

So as much as we can say "I have nothing to hide" but all of us have something we don't want to be public.
In a situation where governments are actively affecting privacy policies of companies like Facebook and Google by mandating the "right to be forgotten", the same should be applied to them.

The difference here is:
companies like Google and FB will store and profile information about you, within their business scope, only if you open an account with them.
A government seems to think they can do this, on a much broader scale, just because of you being born.

freitasm

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#854884 13-Jul-2013 11:23

And now comesto light that Telstra agreed to spy for America:

"Australian telecommunications giant Telstra has for a decade been storing huge volumes of electronic communications carried between Asia and America for surveillance by U.S. intelligence agencies. This includes not just the metadata, but the actual content of emails, online messages and phone calls. With the blessing of the Australian government Telstra agreed to route data through a 'U.S. point of contact through a secure storage facility on U.S. soil that was staffed exclusively by U.S. citizens.' The contract was prompted by Telstra's decision to expand its business in Asia by taking control of hundreds of kilometers of undersea telecommunications cables. The deal started under the Liberal Party and continued under Labor. The Greens have demanded an explanation."

Obviously those guys completely disregard any privacy of its own citizens in exchange for commercial privilege.

From Telstra storing data on behalf of of US government:

Under the previously secret agreement, the telco was required to route all communications involving a US point of contact through a secure storage facility on US soil that was staffed exclusively by US citizens carrying a top-level security clearance.

The data Telstra stored for the US government includes the actual content of emails, online messages and phone calls.

The US Department of Justice and Federal Bureau of Investigation also demanded that Telstra "provide technical or other assistance to facilitate ... electronic surveillance".

In 2001, when the "network security agreement" was signed, Telstra was 50.1 per cent owned by the Commonwealth Government.

The 2001 contract was prompted by Telstra's decision to expand into Asia by taking control of hundreds of kilometres of undersea telecommunications cables.

Telstra had negotiated with a Hong Kong company to launch Reach, which would become the largest carrier of intercontinental telecommunications in Asia. The venture's assets included not just the fibre-optic cables, but also "landing points" and licences around the world.

For years TelstraClear used Reach to carry New Zealand communications out of the country.

Are you feeling safer now, citize?

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