TPP details leaked - be afraid...

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94 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

Radicall

#933744 14-Nov-2013 11:11

Instead of dragging the TPP discussion off into whacko land, how about starting a separate forum discussion and leaving this one to discuss the TPP etc?

Would have been nicer if you were not so judgmental with your opinion on what is and what is not waco.

Done!

Enjoy your fruitless TPP banter.

kiwigeek1

637 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#933751 14-Nov-2013 11:30

no one is really going to say what the really think of all this and the current govs and govs around the world...espc USA censorship and monitoring is well alive in NZ now and forums

lucky we have free press and wiki leaks informing us whats really happening behind closed doors

stuff that lowering parallel imports.. if i cant order my bits from Dx.com without gst and fees wont force me to buy more locally at triple the price for the same goods from local stores thats for sure.

k1wi

484 posts

Ultimate Geek

#933768 14-Nov-2013 11:39

radicall:
k1wi:
radicall: It disgusts me that we have no say in these important issues, Democracy is a corrupt system and a con.

I am sure Key will be cowtailing to the 1% who no doubt have had influence in putting this plan together as part of the NWO agenda.

We are slowly being led the slaughter of our freedom.
We have 'no say' because we are a representative democracy, whereby we choose people to represent ourselves on our behalf. There is nothing new about that - if anything we are much more open than in previous years (for example the budget process is much more open, with relatively few 'secrets' on budget day).

Any agreement will still need to be passed through the New Zealand parliament (and the respective legislatures of the other countries).

Yes my comments are more suited for the conspiracy forums, but I don't see democracy as the right representation of the peoples choice, even if the 100% voted 51% in my opinion does not make a decision correct or best for all.

Back to the 1% and here we go,

Just look at the attitude of the Government towards the referendum on Asset Sales, they dont give a hoot for what the people think. 1% Corporate agendas win.

It's angling a little off topic, but Churchill's quote is salient:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Most of your concerns seem to me to be focused perhaps on the implementation of democracy rather than democracy itself? Parliament could require all bills achieve the 75% majority that constitutional matters require after all, or have other controls on power and the distribution of power. Alternatively it could move more towards direct representation (i.e. binding referendums), but that reduces the power afforded to minorities and there are more minorities than just the "1%".

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#933830 14-Nov-2013 13:04

I wonder if the parallel imports thing could also apply to services like netflix, which is currently legal under that parallel import law.

If they made it illegal to get around geoblocking that would mean no more netflix (assuming they cold actually enforce it, which seems less likely)

SaltyNZ

8166 posts

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2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#933898 14-Nov-2013 14:50

NonprayingMantis: I wonder if the parallel imports thing could also apply to services like netflix, which is currently legal under that parallel import law.

If they made it illegal to get around geoblocking that would mean no more netflix (assuming they cold actually enforce it, which seems less likely)

We need to get more people onto Netflix. The best way to make people angry is to take something away from them that they love. They got away with the three strikes law by taking the moral high ground ('Won't somebody think of the starving Hollywood megacorps!?') but it's really hard to argue there's anything morally wrong with bypassing a geoblock. If anything you, pay more because you not only pay for the service, but also for the service that lets you access the service. Bypassing geoblocks is bad because ... umm... because we said it was. Also, you know who else bypasses geoblocks? Terrorists, that's who!

So... spread the word, get all your friends on Netflix, Hulu, whatever, before it becomes illegal to bypass geoblocks.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#933900 14-Nov-2013 14:56

SaltyNZ:
NonprayingMantis: I wonder if the parallel imports thing could also apply to services like netflix, which is currently legal under that parallel import law.

If they made it illegal to get around geoblocking that would mean no more netflix (assuming they cold actually enforce it, which seems less likely)

We need to get more people onto Netflix. The best way to make people angry is to take something away from them that they love. They got away with the three strikes law by taking the moral high ground ('Won't somebody think of the starving Hollywood megacorps!?') but it's really hard to argue there's anything morally wrong with bypassing a geoblock. If anything you, pay more because you not only pay for the service, but also for the service that lets you access the service. Bypassing geoblocks is bad because ... umm... because we said it was. Also, you know who else bypasses geoblocks? Terrorists, that's who!

So... spread the word, get all your friends on Netflix, Hulu, whatever, before it becomes illegal to bypass geoblocks.

I agree in general, although I seriously doubt people are paying more by using Netflix.

In my case, for example, I pay loads less.

I pay $10 for netflix, $5 for unblock-us, so about $180 per year

Prior to that I had a Sky movies subscription ($20-something I think), SoHo ($10) and I also bought the occaisional DVD (maybe 5 per year at $20 each). I don't do any of those things anymore because I now have Netflix. so about $450ish per year spend.

So overall I spend close to $300 less per year than I did before

radicall

94 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

Radicall

#933935 14-Nov-2013 15:35

k1wi:
radicall:
k1wi:
radicall: It disgusts me that we have no say in these important issues, Democracy is a corrupt system and a con.

I am sure Key will be cowtailing to the 1% who no doubt have had influence in putting this plan together as part of the NWO agenda.

We are slowly being led the slaughter of our freedom.
We have 'no say' because we are a representative democracy, whereby we choose people to represent ourselves on our behalf. There is nothing new about that - if anything we are much more open than in previous years (for example the budget process is much more open, with relatively few 'secrets' on budget day).

Any agreement will still need to be passed through the New Zealand parliament (and the respective legislatures of the other countries).

Yes my comments are more suited for the conspiracy forums, but I don't see democracy as the right representation of the peoples choice, even if the 100% voted 51% in my opinion does not make a decision correct or best for all.

Back to the 1% and here we go,

Just look at the attitude of the Government towards the referendum on Asset Sales, they dont give a hoot for what the people think. 1% Corporate agendas win.
It's angling a little off topic, but Churchill's quote is salient:

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Most of your concerns seem to me to be focused perhaps on the implementation of democracy rather than democracy itself? Parliament could require all bills achieve the 75% majority that constitutional matters require after all, or have other controls on power and the distribution of power. Alternatively it could move more towards direct representation (i.e. binding referendums), but that reduces the power afforded to minorities and there are more minorities than just the "1%".

I believe every political system can work including democracy in its "truest" form with some directives regarding certain freedoms. But yes my preference is to utilise technology and move towards direct representation, furthermore I believe those of mind need to develop an algorithm where there is still an attribution for knowledge (not wealth) as knowledge can attained by anyone now with a link to the internet and other factors that give those with wisdom more weight in the referendum system.

The thing that bugs me most is people not seeing how these free trade agreements are being used as tools to subvert our freedoms.

The TPP is just that conditioning from the agenda of other constitutions over our own.

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SaltyNZ

8166 posts

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2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#934004 14-Nov-2013 17:18

Oh yes, I mean you pay more for Netflix than someone in the US would. Sky is certainly a big loser here, but frankly, they have no one but themselves to blame, and I have zero sympathy for them.

If they really wanted to launch a Netflix killer, they would find a way.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

JimmyH

2886 posts

Uber Geek

#934112 14-Nov-2013 21:35

radicall:
k1wi:
radicall: It disgusts me that we have no say in these important issues, Democracy is a corrupt system and a con.

I am sure Key will be cowtailing to the 1% who no doubt have had influence in putting this plan together as part of the NWO agenda.

We are slowly being led the slaughter of our freedom.
We have 'no say' because we are a representative democracy, whereby we choose people to represent ourselves on our behalf. There is nothing new about that - if anything we are much more open than in previous years (for example the budget process is much more open, with relatively few 'secrets' on budget day).

Any agreement will still need to be passed through the New Zealand parliament (and the respective legislatures of the other countries).

Yes my comments are more suited for the conspiracy forums, but I don't see democracy as the right representation of the peoples choice, even if the 100% voted 51% in my opinion does not make a decision correct or best for all.

Back to the 1% and here we go,

Just look at the attitude of the Government towards the referendum on Asset Sales, they dont give a hoot for what the people think. 1% Corporate agendas win.

What?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cowtailing", unless you think that the Dairy Industry has undue lobbying power in the negotiations, but your post seems a but oddball.

1. The material linked to makes it pretty clear that the NZ government is strongly opposing (not supporting) what you claim they are driving through.

2. There is no way the NZ Government could start unilaterally releasing drafts of discussions that the other parties they are negotiating with don't want released. No one one would negotiate with NZ on pretty much anything if we started doing that.

3. I don't see how random references to "the 1%" (whoever you mean by that) have anything whatsoever to do with this? Unless you think that trade is bad and the general public would be better off if NZ went with Autarky and emulated the North Korean economic miracle? (in which case you would be in a very, very small minority).

4. Asset sales are essentially irrelevant to this discussion. And, in any event, I think there is at least a case to say that it was clearly in their election manifesto, they campaigned on it and it was widely debated, and they were elected. That's not exactly ignoring the electorate?

5. References to John Key being a key catspaw of "the 1%" in conspiring to create the the New World Order aren't exactly helping your credibility here. Plus, in your haste to post, you forgot to link him to the Freemasons, the Illuminati, and the Reptillians.

Zeon

3913 posts

Uber Geek

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#934136 14-Nov-2013 22:21

I didn't vote for John Key but I hate this crap people are spouting out about "helping rich mates" etc. - he's a successful guy who didn't need to be PM. And the reality is that sure he may have known people who are probably best at doing what they are doing.

Why does it always have to be so callous and hostile from the opposition.

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nakedmolerat

4625 posts

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#934141 14-Nov-2013 22:39

To NZers, if TPPA went ahead, our public health system will collapse. PHARMAC & ACC will suffer. Expect to pay more for your medications.

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=rJiEUuvqM-S1iQeH8YHYDQ&url=http://www.parliament.nz/resource/0000147188&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNG0YGICyuCJo2oulVoaJaiyYCgIJA

1080p

1332 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#934159 15-Nov-2013 00:23

Is it normal that legislation in draft is made public?

kiwitrc

4123 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#934164 15-Nov-2013 05:37

1080p: Is it normal that legislation in draft is made public?

Its a Wikileak. Pretty sure neither side of the negotiations wanted it public, least of all the US.

BlueShift

1692 posts

Uber Geek

#934184 15-Nov-2013 08:36

kiwitrc:
1080p: Is it normal that legislation in draft is made public?

Its a Wikileak. Pretty sure neither side of the negotiations wanted it public, least of all the US.

This. Also, its not legislation, its the negotiations for a trade agreement between multiple countries. If the US gets what they want from it, it will require NZ and the other 'partners' to make various changes to our legislation, such changes would be made in public as is required by our system of Government. Of course, by that time it will be difficult not to accept the changes as the trade agreeement will likely have various penalty clauses for reneging on it.

radicall

94 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

Radicall

#934193 15-Nov-2013 09:16

JimmyH:
radicall:
k1wi:
radicall: It disgusts me that we have no say in these important issues, Democracy is a corrupt system and a con.

I am sure Key will be cowtailing to the 1% who no doubt have had influence in putting this plan together as part of the NWO agenda.

We are slowly being led the slaughter of our freedom.
We have 'no say' because we are a representative democracy, whereby we choose people to represent ourselves on our behalf. There is nothing new about that - if anything we are much more open than in previous years (for example the budget process is much more open, with relatively few 'secrets' on budget day).

Any agreement will still need to be passed through the New Zealand parliament (and the respective legislatures of the other countries).

Yes my comments are more suited for the conspiracy forums, but I don't see democracy as the right representation of the peoples choice, even if the 100% voted 51% in my opinion does not make a decision correct or best for all.

Back to the 1% and here we go,

Just look at the attitude of the Government towards the referendum on Asset Sales, they dont give a hoot for what the people think. 1% Corporate agendas win.

What?

I'm not sure what you mean by "cowtailing", unless you think that the Dairy Industry has undue lobbying power in the negotiations, but your post seems a but oddball.

1. The material linked to makes it pretty clear that the NZ government is strongly opposing (not supporting) what you claim they are driving through.

2. There is no way the NZ Government could start unilaterally releasing drafts of discussions that the other parties they are negotiating with don't want released. No one one would negotiate with NZ on pretty much anything if we started doing that.

3. I don't see how random references to "the 1%" (whoever you mean by that) have anything whatsoever to do with this? Unless you think that trade is bad and the general public would be better off if NZ went with Autarky and emulated the North Korean economic miracle? (in which case you would be in a very, very small minority).

4. Asset sales are essentially irrelevant to this discussion. And, in any event, I think there is at least a case to say that it was clearly in their election manifesto, they campaigned on it and it was widely debated, and they were elected. That's not exactly ignoring the electorate?

5. References to John Key being a key catspaw of "the 1%" in conspiring to create the the New World Order aren't exactly helping your credibility here. Plus, in your haste to post, you forgot to link him to the Freemasons, the Illuminati, and the Reptillians.

Hey Jimmy,

Thanks for point out I might have started my commenting here from a particular obtuse perspective, so let me explain it a bit better.

For your information and if you were not able to look it up "cowtailing" means following others to propose a bit like cows follow each other nose to tail. There you go who would have known.

1. Thanks for emphasising "not important" as the meaning of "strongly opposing" but that is not the point of my conclusive opening statement.

2. Clearly the motivation as to why the US would not want information released is not a issue for you, you accept that something that affects the major part of our industries we don't need to know about, leave it to your trusting Government.

3. There was no random reference it was specific to the agenda of Globalism and the direction that the 1% want to take the World. I point again to the fact that Democracy is not a true representation of what the People want, it is corrupt and a puppet of the 1% who know how to manipulate the People through media and other forms yet nothing changes from their agenda. The internet has suppressed their agenda somewhat it is why they are desperately trying everything to bring it under some sort of control.

Noting against trade agreements but I am against monopolistic corporations using trade agreement to suppress what once is free for the sake of their greed.

4. Asset sales go toward the attitude of a democratically elected Government and that the Peoples voice does not matter, the election was not a election represented buy all people and is corrupt, any mandate is a false undertaking. A government for the people should see the issue for what it is and allow the referendum to decide the future of Asset Sales.

5. I see you like the word "catspaw" as opposed to cowtail, you really need to open your eyes a bit to the World events, so you consider the Government Communications Security Bureau bill to be the sole work of Key do you, one obvious example of cowtailing to his US friends. I am also assure of your wisdom by the fact that you consider it reasonable to judge someone's credibility based on 2-3 posts, that certainly shows good judgement of character and subject.

As far as Freemasons, the Illuminati, and the Reptilians, I don't discount anything, if the world revolves around you there is probably nothing to it, I suspect there is something to it, what, I can not address conclusively.

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