Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | ... | 22
2634 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1392291 22-Sep-2015 22:29
One person supports this post
Send private message

itxtme:

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living.  Not an unknown at all.



Yes, actually it is. Your point is that longer patents will keep prices higher for longer, and this will reduce access somewhat with an impact on mortality. Which is a fair and valid point. However, there is also a counter argument that longer patents will incentivise more investment in drugs as compaines will have a longer window to make money and recover their costs, which should hopefully lead to accelerated discovery and availability of new medicines - reducing mortality. As to how this will ultimately come out on balance, I don't know.

Mad Scientist
20792 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1392293 22-Sep-2015 22:31
Send private message

JimmyH:
itxtme:

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living.  Not an unknown at all.



Yes, actually it is. Your point is that longer patents will keep prices higher for longer, and this will reduce access somewhat with an impact on mortality. Which is a fair and valid point. However, there is also a counter argument that longer patents will incentivise more investment in drugs as compaines will have a longer window to make money and recover their costs, which should hopefully lead to accelerated discovery and availability of new medicines - reducing mortality. As to how this will ultimately come out on balance, I don't know.


huh? you think that's how drug companies think?
no. if they can make you sell your kidney to heal your leg they will.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


2634 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1392294 22-Sep-2015 22:35
2 people support this post
Send private message

Fred99:
NorthernZone: Ref the opinions of medical specialists: I certainly agree that we should accord special weighting to their expert opinions in the areas of their professional expertise. But when their opinions stray into areas outside that, such as economics and international trade policy, then their opinions are surely of no greater value than any other lay person. Frankly I respect the professionalism and patriotism and experience of our trade negotiators to do their specialist job just as much as I respect the comparable expertise of oncologists or other medicos in their own areas.


Their expertise is much greater than any lay person when it come to expressing an opinion on the impact of the certainly of increased cost on their ability to prescribe medication - so please keep to topic.  No, I don't expect them to express particularly valid opinion about the price of milk.



Trade treaties are complex deals that require quite a bit of economic expertise to understand. And they are pretty much always "on balance" deals, which involve signing up to some clauses that you would rather not have in return for getting the other side to sign up for the things you want.

Personally, I am about as likely to rely on economic advice from a medical specialist as I am to rely on medical advice from an economist.



Mad Scientist
20792 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1392335 22-Sep-2015 23:10
Send private message

Medical specialists will never understand economics. Even economists don't.

But they understand the way drug companies work. By creaming the sick. To be fair, it's no worse than say, Apple. But you/your country don't have to buy an iphone if you do not wish to.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28212223





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


1687 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  # 1392368 23-Sep-2015 00:35
Send private message

JimmyH:
itxtme:

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living.  Not an unknown at all.



Yes, actually it is. Your point is that longer patents will keep prices higher for longer, and this will reduce access somewhat with an impact on mortality. Which is a fair and valid point. However, there is also a counter argument that longer patents will incentivise more investment in drugs as compaines will have a longer window to make money and recover their costs, which should hopefully lead to accelerated discovery and availability of new medicines - reducing mortality. As to how this will ultimately come out on balance, I don't know.


Your argument made me physically laugh out loud.  Drug companys do not act in this way.  This is an indisputable fact.  Check out the latest google news feed for the term 'Drug company profits' every article listed is about the prolific profits being made.Non  of which are older than a few days!

The article that Joker97 has shown is famous for illustrating just what companies spend on R&D vs Advertising.  It is disturbing to anyone, whether you work in that industry or not.  Have a look at Gabapentin, the drug company involved in that is currently going through the courts for its reps marketing it for things it hasnt even been approved for!


Who is going to get rich from these deals every day NZers or the company owners?  How many have received massive pay rises that the trickle down effect should have afforded us all in this "rock star" economy??

It is a very dangerous area to be increasing patent times.  In 5, 10, 15 years time an extra 5 years on a drug patent will just be the norm, but the point is hundreds of thousands of NZers will still be paying the price of that agreement.  Is that something to be taken lightly??

JWR

776 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1392378 23-Sep-2015 02:05

JimmyH:
itxtme:

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living.  Not an unknown at all.



Yes, actually it is. Your point is that longer patents will keep prices higher for longer, and this will reduce access somewhat with an impact on mortality. Which is a fair and valid point. However, there is also a counter argument that longer patents will incentivise more investment in drugs as compaines will have a longer window to make money and recover their costs, which should hopefully lead to accelerated discovery and availability of new medicines - reducing mortality. As to how this will ultimately come out on balance, I don't know.


No! It is the people who are suffering now that are important.

You say 'with an impact on mortality'.

I would say that you would have a different view if it was you facing your own mortality soon.

JWR

776 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1392379 23-Sep-2015 02:14

itxtme:
JimmyH:
itxtme:

Surely you can see the effect even a 1 year increase in patents will have on mortality rates and quality of living.  Not an unknown at all.



Yes, actually it is. Your point is that longer patents will keep prices higher for longer, and this will reduce access somewhat with an impact on mortality. Which is a fair and valid point. However, there is also a counter argument that longer patents will incentivise more investment in drugs as compaines will have a longer window to make money and recover their costs, which should hopefully lead to accelerated discovery and availability of new medicines - reducing mortality. As to how this will ultimately come out on balance, I don't know.


Your argument made me physically laugh out loud.  Drug companys do not act in this way.  This is an indisputable fact.  Check out the latest google news feed for the term 'Drug company profits' every article listed is about the prolific profits being made.Non  of which are older than a few days!

The article that Joker97 has shown is famous for illustrating just what companies spend on R&D vs Advertising.  It is disturbing to anyone, whether you work in that industry or not.  Have a look at Gabapentin, the drug company involved in that is currently going through the courts for its reps marketing it for things it hasnt even been approved for!


Who is going to get rich from these deals every day NZers or the company owners?  How many have received massive pay rises that the trickle down effect should have afforded us all in this "rock star" economy??

It is a very dangerous area to be increasing patent times.  In 5, 10, 15 years time an extra 5 years on a drug patent will just be the norm, but the point is hundreds of thousands of NZers will still be paying the price of that agreement.  Is that something to be taken lightly??


I have no doubt that if we accept longer patent times on drugs, then NZrs will die because of that.

That is a natural market-based outcome.

Since economics is driving all of this.

 
 
 
 


2948 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1392408 23-Sep-2015 07:21
Send private message

See also Recent Stuff article

Q
uadrupling the price of a 62-y-o drug, basically because they can.


3200 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1392419 23-Sep-2015 07:42
2 people support this post
Send private message

I neither agree nor disagree on the points of views expressed over drug distribution.  Longer patents for development and $$$ for research = better drugs faster, or shorter patents = availability of drugs cheaper for wider distribution.  

I however come back to my first question...what does this have to specifically do with the TPPA?   Laws can be easily changed to alter drug patent terms at any time, drug companies can decide at any time what they will charge for their product.  Whether the TPPA comes in or not the same outcome is possible is it not?  And given that the details of the TPPA are SECRET how can anyone know, be they a qualified medical expert, world class economist, or burger-flipper at the local MD's, the outcome until the ink on the paper is dry?  

I get the concern, I just don't get how so many people are apparently experts on a supposed secret trade agreement? Or is it not so secret after all?  




Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



1256 posts

Uber Geek


# 1392437 23-Sep-2015 08:26
2 people support this post
Send private message

itxtme: Yep, its only once a drug is out of patient that Pharmac will be able to afford to fund it.

I have no comments on the TPPA - I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed that typo! 

2948 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1392442 23-Sep-2015 08:49
2 people support this post
Send private message

scuwp: I neither agree nor disagree on the points of views expressed over drug distribution.  Longer patents for development and $$$ for research = better drugs faster, or shorter patents = availability of drugs cheaper for wider distribution.  

I however come back to my first question...what does this have to specifically do with the TPPA?   Laws can be easily changed to alter drug patent terms at any time, drug companies can decide at any time what they will charge for their product.  Whether the TPPA comes in or not the same outcome is possible is it not?  And given that the details of the TPPA are SECRET how can anyone know, be they a qualified medical expert, world class economist, or burger-flipper at the local MD's, the outcome until the ink on the paper is dry?  

I get the concern, I just don't get how so many people are apparently experts on a supposed secret trade agreement? Or is it not so secret after all?  


One of the secret details of the TPPA that has been leaked (and not denied by John Key) is that the TPPA allows companies to sue Governments for any losses caused by law changes. So, laws WON'T be easily changed (except to provide even more profit to the corporations). Such a major change to the sovereignty of our nation needs to be openly discussed, not slipped in as a secret agreement that, once the ink is dry, can't be rescinded.

If the TPPA was such a good thing for Kiwis, why is it secret? Surely John Key would be trumpeting the goodness of it all to all and sundry. When a politician keeps something secret, it's because someone (usually the taxpayer) is getting shafted.



47 posts

Geek


  # 1392459 23-Sep-2015 09:14
Send private message

Lots of conspiracy theories here! Surely we can learn something from all our former trade agreements (none of which generated such widespread concern)?

A lot of scare-mongering has been published about the danger to a sovereign govt's right to pursue its own health and environmental policies (etc). Although I don't know the exact provisions of the TPP (of course), I note that several recent trade agreements have dealt with the same sort of issue and in every case there have been "carve out" positions whereby each country has protected its "sovereign rights" in certain areas. Since the Govt has repeatedly insisted that Pharmac, other health & environmental policies, will be fundamentally preserved, I infer they have placed such matters in their "carved out" area.

3200 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1392497 23-Sep-2015 09:40
3 people support this post
Send private message

frankv:
scuwp: I neither agree nor disagree on the points of views expressed over drug distribution.  Longer patents for development and $$$ for research = better drugs faster, or shorter patents = availability of drugs cheaper for wider distribution.  

I however come back to my first question...what does this have to specifically do with the TPPA?   Laws can be easily changed to alter drug patent terms at any time, drug companies can decide at any time what they will charge for their product.  Whether the TPPA comes in or not the same outcome is possible is it not?  And given that the details of the TPPA are SECRET how can anyone know, be they a qualified medical expert, world class economist, or burger-flipper at the local MD's, the outcome until the ink on the paper is dry?  

I get the concern, I just don't get how so many people are apparently experts on a supposed secret trade agreement? Or is it not so secret after all?  


One of the secret details of the TPPA that has been leaked (and not denied by John Key) is that the TPPA allows companies to sue Governments for any losses caused by law changes. So, laws WON'T be easily changed (except to provide even more profit to the corporations). Such a major change to the sovereignty of our nation needs to be openly discussed, not slipped in as a secret agreement that, once the ink is dry, can't be rescinded.

If the TPPA was such a good thing for Kiwis, why is it secret? Surely John Key would be trumpeting the goodness of it all to all and sundry. When a politician keeps something secret, it's because someone (usually the taxpayer) is getting shafted.




Conspiracy theorists playground here. Its secret because it it a trade/business negotiation. If the other parties knew our strategy or position then they could use that against NZ. I see nothing unusual in that.




Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman





8600 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1392541 23-Sep-2015 10:10
Send private message

NorthernZone: Lots of conspiracy theories here! Surely we can learn something from all our former trade agreements (none of which generated such widespread concern)?


No we can't.
Previous FTAs didn't have acceptance and adoption of US IP rights to all other parties right at the core of negotiations.
That's not "secret" - it's been well and truly leaked already.

As for the need for secrecy on the impact of TPA on Pharmac, I call BS on that.  It's abject BS.
By extension of the impact of patent extension on the industry, it might be possible to conclude that US Pharma companies will make more money, but it's a hell of a stretch from that to suggest that a "commercial advantage" prejudicing market negotiation justifies the level of secrecy.  There are also significant negatives from that secrecy due to "doubt".  If you wanted to invest in Pharma enterprise, would you do it now when you know that some select US Pharma corps (who may be your competitors) already have full access to the "secret" details and are involved in the "secret" negotiations? 

The process is so rotten to the core, optimism about the outcome is misguided.

Fat bottom Trump
10575 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1392554 23-Sep-2015 10:14
One person supports this post
Send private message

scuwp: 

Conspiracy theorists playground here. Its secret because it it a trade/business negotiation. If the other parties knew our strategy or position then they could use that against NZ. I see nothing unusual in that.


That is a specious argument. In a trade negotiation this high powered, each party will have a battery of specialist strategists working out the repercussions of every possible stance of the opposing parties. The only ones this is a secret to are the public that will end up paying for it.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | ... | 22
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Facebook Portal to land in New Zealand
Posted 19-Sep-2019 18:35


Amazon Studios announces New Zealand as location for its upcoming series based on The Lord of the Rings
Posted 18-Sep-2019 17:24


The Warehouse chooses Elasticsearch service
Posted 18-Sep-2019 13:55


Voyager upgrades core network to 100Gbit
Posted 18-Sep-2019 13:52


Streaming service Acorn TV launches in New Zealand with selection with British shows
Posted 18-Sep-2019 08:55


Bitcoin.com announces partnership with smartphone manufacturer HTC
Posted 16-Sep-2019 21:30


Finalists Announced for Microsoft NZ Partner Awards
Posted 16-Sep-2019 19:37


OPPO Showcases New CameraX Capabilities at Google Developer Days China 2019
Posted 15-Sep-2019 12:42


New Zealand PC Market returns to growth
Posted 15-Sep-2019 12:24


Home sensor charity director speaks about the preventable death which drives her to push for healthy homes
Posted 11-Sep-2019 08:46


Te ao Maori Minecraft world set to inspire Kiwi students
Posted 11-Sep-2019 08:43


Research reveals The Power of Games in New Zealand
Posted 11-Sep-2019 08:40


Ring Door View Cam now available in New Zealand
Posted 11-Sep-2019 08:38


Vodafone NZ to create X Squad
Posted 10-Sep-2019 10:25


Huawei nova 5T to be available 20th September
Posted 5-Sep-2019 11:55



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.