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friedCrumpet
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  #253132 4-Sep-2009 12:06
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Stephen1: It amazes me the how passionate people get about these issues. The issue is about how conscious people are about the link to how regulations and commercial decsions effect the lives of people in very real ways.

I take exception to the comments about vodafone "getting" charities to speak up. We are substantial businesses that speak up because we deal with the down sides of these decisions all the time.

And yes we do get information from those that we have a commercial relationship with. That is one good thing about the environment we work in. For the first time in 40 years we have had a choice about who we do business with and that has resulted in substantial savings.

Perhaps we need to move away from the dualistic thinking we there are good guys and bad guys and ponder the effects of decsions.

some of the comments have been very uesful in unpacking the issues others are just simplistic insults.


Why did you come to Geekzone to post about these issues? Did you even know about Geekzone before you got 'educated' by Vodafone?  If you did, why didn't you come here to get advice/spark a discussion before posting your press release?

You based a large portion of your press release on Vodafone's point of view, people here are just calling it as they see it - if you take exception to that maybe you should step outside your environment for a moment and consider how we might see things.


freitasm
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  #253159 4-Sep-2009 12:34
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Stephen1: some of the comments have been very uesful in unpacking the issues others are just simplistic insults.


I respect your work. It's a great thing for our youth.

But I have to agree with meesham's comments. How you think people from outside see that Youthline is sending out a press release about Mobile Termination rates, saying that cheaper services would provide leverage for increased bullying, using almost the same words as one of the companies that

a) sponsors your work
b) is fighting to keep their rates up

The minimum intelligent people ask for is full disclosure.

If your press release (yes I received it) had the words: "Note to editor: we receive/d sponsorship from Vodafone New Zealand" or if you had posted here with words such "We agree with Vodafone, regardless of our sponsorship relationship" then, perhaps, people would see it differently.

No one is bashing Youthline or trying to insult your work. What people want to know is how much influence and/or pressure Vodafone, your sponsor, put into you coming out into this campaign?

That's all.





 

 

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Stephen1

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  #253210 4-Sep-2009 15:35
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youthline receives money from government for the school we run and for the crisis counselling we provide and we don't advise everyone about this before we issue a press release about things that concern us why should this be different.
$10 text work well enough for young people but what happens if text get to the same cost as email.
it would be different I would say!




Stephen Bell

simon14
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  #253215 4-Sep-2009 15:48
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Who on earth ever said to make the MTR for text ZERO?

It's about lowering the MTR, not removing it completely.

Do you even understand what is going on?

Lowering the MTR from 9.3c to even 1c per text, will still make texting MORE expensive than Vodafone are currently offering through text2000, of which each text is only .5c each.

How is having text more expensive than is currently on offer through Text 2000, going to increase text bullying?

Screeb
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  #253218 4-Sep-2009 15:53
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Stephen1:
but what happens if text get to the same cost as email.

it would be different I would say!


What? Firstly, texting is never going to be free. Secondly, how much bullying is there via email? According to your logic, email should be the number one choice of bullies country wide - after all, it's free (unlike txts), easy to send multiple messages to one or more people (easier than txts), and completely anonymous (if you choose) (unlike txts - phone IDs can be traced and blocked). What's more, you can still even use a cellphone to do it - just use a wifi capable phone and find somewhere with wifi like Starbucks, and you're all set - bully away for free!

So, when do you plan on sending out a press release condemning email for being free?

SepticSceptic
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  #253246 4-Sep-2009 16:33
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Having been at the brunt of some pretty severe verbal bullying during my time at school, counselling groups would be better to focus on how the bullied person deals with the abuse - after all, it's non-physical, and does it REALLY matter what your so called "friends" and acquaintances think about comments from the bully ?

If you learn how to deal with verbal/cyber bullying, and no go crying off to some counsellor everytime someone writes disparaging comments, we would do away with most HR leeching departments anyway. There will always be bullying at school, in the workplace, at the pub, everywhere in one form or another, intimidation by an employer, spouse, etc

The old adage sticks and stones .,....




My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


meesham
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  #253251 4-Sep-2009 16:41
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Stephen1: youthline receives money from government for the school we run and for the crisis counselling we provide and we don't advise everyone about this before we issue a press release about things that concern us why should this be different.


If you can't see the difference between disclosing a conflict of interest with a commercial entity whose primary goal is to make money and the government who's (meant to be) there for the best interests of the public then I think you need to look at your code of ethics. I have no problem with companies making money (I run a business and I like to make money), and I have great respect for organisations like yours who are trying to help people, but I think you're being used by Vodafone and it concerns me that you can't see that.

Stephen1:
$10 text work well enough for young people but what happens if text get to the same cost as email.


$10 text packs work well enough, so you now agree that there's no problem with reducing the MTR? As previously mentioned 2000 texts for $10 works out to 0.5 cents per text, FAR FAR LESS than the current rate for texts between networks.

 
 
 
 


sbiddle
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  #253262 4-Sep-2009 17:01
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simon14: Who on earth ever said to make the MTR for text ZERO?



2degrees. They pushed BAK very heavily at the MTAS conference.


It's about lowering the MTR, not removing it completely.


I'm not sure if 2degrees would agree entirely with your synopsis.




simon14
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  #253269 4-Sep-2009 17:16
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sbiddle:
simon14: Who on earth ever said to make the MTR for text ZERO?



2degrees. They pushed BAK very heavily at the MTAS conference.


It's about lowering the MTR, not removing it completely.


I'm not sure if 2degrees would agree entirely with your synopsis.




2degrees pushing for it and the ComCom actually considering it are two very different things.

I highly doubt that they will enforce BAK....

BAK is a bad idea in my opinion for many reasons. We still need an MTR, just not as high as it is today.

The press release in question was obviosuly referring to lower MTR's. There is no need to start worrying about being regulated with BAK.

tonyhughes
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  #253291 4-Sep-2009 18:13
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I think Youthline and Stephen Bell are getting an unnecessary hard time in here.

Please bear in mind that organisations like this do a fabulous job in our community, and are NOT the bad guy in the MTR saga.

They are entitled to their opinion, and if they were prompted to that opinion by their carrier, so what? Youthline and Stephen Bell are old enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and form an opinion based on others opinions (after all, how much of everyone elses opinion on matters is based on what they have read elsewhere? Most i'd say).

Stephen came here to put his organisations viewpoint across, and I think the typical response of coming down on someone like a bag of hammers is just not appropriate here, regardless of your opinion about MTRs.

I would love to see more and more organisations come for some decent conversation, but remember that these people do not live and breathe the geeky pedantic side of telecommunications like some of us do.

There may very well be some advantage for various organisations to side with their carrier on the issue. Is that a bad thing? Maybe if you are on a no-holds-barred-i-dont-care-about-anyone-elses-opinion-crusade-about-MTRs, but lets give these guys a fair go - their end game is not about MTRs, their end game is about the youth of the nation.

Go easy.
Speak your mind.
Don't needlessly hammer people or organisations, or imply dodgy alterior motives for actions based on pure speculation.







simon14
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  #253296 4-Sep-2009 18:39
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tonyhughes: I think Youthline and Stephen Bell are getting an unnecessary hard time in here.

Please bear in mind that organisations like this do a fabulous job in our community, and are NOT the bad guy in the MTR saga.




Youthline used the media to put across a point they obviously feel so strongly about. As a result, this has caused debate. The fact that Youthline is a fabulous charity for all our communities has absolutely nothing to do with it, especially due to the fact that it just doesnt make sense...

Cheers.

tonyhughes
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  #253300 4-Sep-2009 18:50
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simon14:
tonyhughes: I think Youthline and Stephen Bell are getting an unnecessary hard time in here.

Please bear in mind that organisations like this do a fabulous job in our community, and are NOT the bad guy in the MTR saga.




Youthline used the media to put across a point they obviously feel so strongly about. As a result, this has caused debate. The fact that Youthline is a fabulous charity for all our communities has absolutely nothing to do with it, especially due to the fact that it just doesnt make sense...

Cheers.

Youthlines charitable cause might have "nothing to do with it" for you, but I bet it has everything to do with it for them.







sbiddle
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  #253349 5-Sep-2009 08:34
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simon14:
sbiddle:
simon14: Who on earth ever said to make the MTR for text ZERO?



2degrees. They pushed BAK very heavily at the MTAS conference.


It's about lowering the MTR, not removing it completely.


I'm not sure if 2degrees would agree entirely with your synopsis.




2degrees pushing for it and the ComCom actually considering it are two very different things.

I highly doubt that they will enforce BAK....

BAK is a bad idea in my opinion for many reasons. We still need an MTR, just not as high as it is today.

The press release in question was obviosuly referring to lower MTR's. There is no need to start worrying about being regulated with BAK.


I think you're missing the point slightly.

2degrees want BAK in the NZ marketplace. They have made no secret of this. Saying the Commerce Commission aren't considering BAK is a very bold statement to make.

BAK isn't necessarily a bad idea, particularly for SMS. Judging by your comments you're obviously unaware that Vodafone and 2degrees already have BAK in place for all international SMS messages (which makes a mockery of VF charging more for prepay international SMS but that's an entirely different issue). The first SMS interconnect agreements between Telecom and Vodafone in 2001 were also BAK. This is one of the reasons Telecom were able to launch $10 TXT.

I applaud what Youthline does for the community but I'm not too sure about the true relevence between any form of mobile regulation that may or may not occur.

There are other issues such as compulsary registration of SIM cards that would go a long way to minimising or preventing some of the issues that they have to deal with on a daily basis.

Issues such as TXT bullying aren't going to change with any MTR regulation. If people knew they couldn't remain anonymous behind a phone then we might see a change in people's behaviour.

meesham
972 posts

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  #253354 5-Sep-2009 09:29
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tonyhughes: I think Youthline and Stephen Bell are getting an unnecessary hard time in here.

Please bear in mind that organisations like this do a fabulous job in our community, and are NOT the bad guy in the MTR saga.

They are entitled to their opinion, and if they were prompted to that opinion by their carrier, so what? Youthline and Stephen Bell are old enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and form an opinion based on others opinions (after all, how much of everyone elses opinion on matters is based on what they have read elsewhere? Most i'd say).

Stephen came here to put his organisations viewpoint across, and I think the typical response of coming down on someone like a bag of hammers is just not appropriate here, regardless of your opinion about MTRs.

I would love to see more and more organisations come for some decent conversation, but remember that these people do not live and breathe the geeky pedantic side of telecommunications like some of us do.

There may very well be some advantage for various organisations to side with their carrier on the issue. Is that a bad thing? Maybe if you are on a no-holds-barred-i-dont-care-about-anyone-elses-opinion-crusade-about-MTRs, but lets give these guys a fair go - their end game is not about MTRs, their end game is about the youth of the nation.

Go easy.
Speak your mind.
Don't needlessly hammer people or organisations, or imply dodgy alterior motives for actions based on pure speculation.


I agree that his organisation does an excellent job, but I disagree that they're getting an unnecessary hard time here.

Stephen Bell & Youthline have used their name and standing in the community to help push forward the idea both in the media and here that cheaper text messages could result in more bullying. That's fair enough, they're entitled to their opinion, but he should have disclosed that this opinion also happens to help support the commercial interests of a donor to their organisation, and the only reason he's gone public on this opinion is that he was pushed into it by Vodafone.

The fact that he doesn't feel it's necessary to disclose this information, even though he's admitted that Vodafone's press release was the reason Youthline got involved doesn't sit well with me.

These are forums mainly designed for geeks and as such some of us are interested in the geeky pedantic side of telecommunications, I think we're interested in the geeky pedantic side of many things.
While I think it's great that he's decided to come to these forums he's never actually answered WHY he originally came here, it seems like an odd choice. If he wanted to discuss this he could have remained anonymous, not use Youthline's name to put his point across.

Edit: After re-reading this post my wording might be a bit too strong, from what Stephen's said he wasn't pushed into it by Vodafone but their release encouraged him to contribute.

friedCrumpet
268 posts

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  #253609 6-Sep-2009 19:48
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They are entitled to their opinion, and if they were prompted to that opinion by their carrier, so what?


It makes them look like a pawn of said carrier, that's what.

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