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jbard
1373 posts

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  #479514 9-Jun-2011 22:07
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Ragnor: Perhaps you should take some history lessons in why that kind of thing would be bad idea.

or read the book 1984.


+1


The internet ID idea is terrible on some many levels and for so many reasons i'm not going to post them here as it would take far to long.


macuser

2120 posts

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  #479518 9-Jun-2011 22:14
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Ragnor: Well for a start you have your terms all wrong.

Copyright infringement is "infringement", by definition it's not theft/stealing/piracy.... no matter how the media industry try to paint it.

If you steal my car, I no longer have my car.

If you download a copy of Dr Who from the internet you haven't stolen Dr Who they still have it.

You have only infringed on the Copyright owners government granted legal monopoly/exclusive right to profit from the work. It the case of a tv series it's a bit tenuous for example you wouldn't have paid for the show directly but by downloading it you may have contributed to Prime not paying for the rights to show it and so on...

There is quite an important distinction to be made here that many peoples don't understand.



But that's related to the digital nature of the content, it's able to be reproduced exactly, infinitely.  Yes if I get a copy of a movie, that's what it is, a copy, so current business economics don't work if there is infinite supply, but I'm not trying to suggest a fix for that, what I'm saying is that just because a copy of something was made for free, doesn't mean the entertainment / tools you just received has no value.  I'm trying to create a situation where people get punished in a reasonable way for piracy, that will be seen as fair, and deter people from doing it.

Usually if you were not ok with a price, you wouldn't pay for it and not receive the service.  Now you are not ok with the price, you can receive the service regardless.  

 

 
 
 
 


SaltyNZ
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  #479519 9-Jun-2011 22:14
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You're ignoring the actual evidence, which is quite conclusive: iTunes loses DRM and expands their catalogue to as near to 'everything' as makes no difference and overnight becomes the world's largest music retailer, continuing to grow while everyone else is shrinking.

Lack of reasonable access to digital content is the problem. Period.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


macuser

2120 posts

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  #479521 9-Jun-2011 22:16
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jbard:
Ragnor: Perhaps you should take some history lessons in why that kind of thing would be bad idea.

or read the book 1984.


+1


The internet ID idea is terrible on some many levels and for so many reasons i'm not going to post them here as it would take far to long.



Ha, 

Maybe you remember this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B9MqNzQuuk 

Ok, so to create accountability for the individual, how do you suggest you do it? 

1080p
1332 posts

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  #479523 9-Jun-2011 22:27
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You have no idea what you're proposing here do you? Giving up all anonymity on the internet to prevent a relatively minor irritation to the media industry.

This law would only go into effect in New Zealand meaning spam, bullying and insecure money transfer would all still exist as no other country on Earth would enact such a stupid law.

We'd all be tracked by advertising companies even more effectively if a way to discern an 'Internet ID' was discovered.

Students tend to pirate more content because their generation has grown up with Bittorrent as opposed to cassettes or records. This is my argument as to why the media corporations need to change distribution methodology, rather than change the law.

macuser

2120 posts

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  #479533 9-Jun-2011 22:48
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1080p: You have no idea what you're proposing here do you? Giving up all anonymity on the internet to prevent a relatively minor irritation to the media industry.

This law would only go into effect in New Zealand meaning spam, bullying and insecure money transfer would all still exist as no other country on Earth would enact such a stupid law.

We'd all be tracked by advertising companies even more effectively if a way to discern an 'Internet ID' was discovered.

Students tend to pirate more content because their generation has grown up with Bittorrent as opposed to cassettes or records. This is my argument as to why the media corporations need to change distribution methodology, rather than change the law.


You have a drivers license, so that people can identify you by, it also features a unique code, so does your passport.  You shouldn't be anonymous on the internet!  Why should you not be accountable for your actions on the internet? I understand there is always a risk of 'big brother',  but that can be prevented, unless of course there is another earthquake and they push more legislation through.  Ha.

I'm suggesting that, the internet should be a bit more like real life, and those committing what we now at this very point call crimes, should be able to be held accountable.  

Accountability for individuals on the internet is the first step into the future of marketplaces.  

It can;t be the wild west forever!



Ragnor
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  #479535 9-Jun-2011 22:52
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iTunes (music), Steam (pc games), Netflix (movies US/CA only) and Hulu (US/CA only) show that if you make legal content available consumers are happy to pay for convenience and good service.

The problem is Netflix and Hulu aren't available to NZ and won't be any time soon due to archaic regional distribution.


 
 
 
 


inane
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  #479539 9-Jun-2011 22:57
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macuser:
1080p: You have no idea what you're proposing here do you? Giving up all anonymity on the internet to prevent a relatively minor irritation to the media industry.

This law would only go into effect in New Zealand meaning spam, bullying and insecure money transfer would all still exist as no other country on Earth would enact such a stupid law.

We'd all be tracked by advertising companies even more effectively if a way to discern an 'Internet ID' was discovered.

Students tend to pirate more content because their generation has grown up with Bittorrent as opposed to cassettes or records. This is my argument as to why the media corporations need to change distribution methodology, rather than change the law.


You have a drivers license, so that people can identify you by, it also features a unique code, so does your passport.  You shouldn't be anonymous on the internet!  Why should you not be accountable for your actions on the internet? I understand there is always a risk of 'big brother',  but that can be prevented, unless of course there is another earthquake and they push more legislation through.  Ha.

I'm suggesting that, the internet should be a bit more like real life, and those committing what we now at this very point call crimes, should be able to be held accountable.  

Accountability for individuals on the internet is the first step into the future of marketplaces.  

It can;t be the wild west forever!




I realise you are either a troll or have no understanding whatsoever of the technology involved, but lets look at something simple.


Credit Cards! yep. they are used on the internet to make purchases, and most people will only use those at legit sites, but legit sites get compromised all the time.

plus, I think that we'd have work arounds for the id before it even happened.



congrats on your trolling, will you follow up with the internet is a series of tubes?

no offence, but this is why I dislike mac users.
 




Mobile devices and more

SaltyNZ
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  #479545 9-Jun-2011 23:10
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Ragnor: iTunes (music), Steam (pc games), Netflix (movies US/CA only) and Hulu (US/CA only) show that if you make legal content available consumers are happy to pay for convenience and good service.

The problem is Netflix and Hulu aren't available to NZ and won't be any time soon due to archaic regional distribution.



Here is a specific example. As an expat Aussie I like to listen to Triple J over the net (thanks TuneIn Radio!). Recently I've heard the Redcoats song Dreamshaker. It's not available in the NZ iTunes store. I asked the band about it on their Facebook page, but they don't know if/when it will be.

They have lost a sale. Piracy had nothing to do with it. I don't have to pay them anything anyway: all their music can be streamed in high rate MP3 from their MySpace site. But I *want* to pay them. And I can't.

Lack of access to a legal paid copy has lost them the sale. Not piracy.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


macuser

2120 posts

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  #479546 9-Jun-2011 23:13
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SaltyNZ:
Ragnor: iTunes (music), Steam (pc games), Netflix (movies US/CA only) and Hulu (US/CA only) show that if you make legal content available consumers are happy to pay for convenience and good service.

The problem is Netflix and Hulu aren't available to NZ and won't be any time soon due to archaic regional distribution.



Here is a specific example. As an expat Aussie I like to listen to Triple J over the net (thanks TuneIn Radio!). Recently I've heard the Redcoats song Dreamshaker. It's not available in the NZ iTunes store. I asked the band about it on their Facebook page, but they don't know if/when it will be.

They have lost a sale. Piracy had nothing to do with it. I don't have to pay them anything anyway: all their music can be streamed in high rate MP3 from their MySpace site. But I *want* to pay them. And I can't.

Lack of access to a legal paid copy has lost them the sale. Not piracy.


Take my flatmate, a new album by Tyler, the creator came out, he immediately went to a torrent website and downloaded it.

That's what I'm creating ideas to curb... 

SaltyNZ
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  #479547 9-Jun-2011 23:17
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macuser: Take my flatmate, a new album by Tyler, the creator came out, he immediately went to a torrent website and downloaded it.

That's what I'm creating ideas to curb...?


Then I submit that he was never going to buy it, and your fine idea wouldn't do a damn bit to stop him. People know they can be fined for speeding too, but they still do it.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


Ragnor
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  #479557 10-Jun-2011 00:19
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macuser: 

Take my flatmate, a new album by Tyler, the creator came out, he immediately went to a torrent website and downloaded it.



Well for a start that just shows your flatmate has poor taste in two ways.. hah

The bottom line is no matter what the supplier/creator/maker thinks a good is worth it's only worth what buyers are willing to pay for it.

If your flatmate isn't willing to pay for the digital version of the album because he knows the marginal cost of creating an extra unit of the product and delivering it to his computer is effectively nothing the good it in fact has no value. 

The great thing about infinite goods is that they create other scarcities, chances are your flatmate will buy a ticket to the concert if the artist tours here and might by a t-shirt at the gig if he's a big fan.

In 2010 Metallica made ~$1M from CD sales and $100M from touring and merchandise....

Your proposed solutions are protecting obsolete business models and are backwards thinking.  Artificial scarcity won't work in the long run.

I suggest you watch some of Mike Masnick's presentations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njuo1puB1lg

wilsa
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  #479721 10-Jun-2011 14:02
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While it is good to see people out there coming up with alternative ideas, this one is terrible. Internet IDs? Now that is getting very big brother like. I think with the development of better services piracy will die out. At the moment I no longer need to pirate all the music I like as there are tons of sites that offer it, where as before I couldn't find it in shops on NZ or online. Hopefully the same will happen with TV and Movies in time. I'd match rather watch something on say TVNZ Ondemand than some dodge stream site or take the risk of downloading it and getting infected. But as some have pointed out at the moment that is often the only way.

macuser

2120 posts

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  #479745 10-Jun-2011 15:04
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wilsa: While it is good to see people out there coming up with alternative ideas, this one is terrible. Internet IDs? Now that is getting very big brother like. I think with the development of better services piracy will die out. At the moment I no longer need to pirate all the music I like as there are tons of sites that offer it, where as before I couldn't find it in shops on NZ or online. Hopefully the same will happen with TV and Movies in time. I'd match rather watch something on say TVNZ Ondemand than some dodge stream site or take the risk of downloading it and getting infected. But as some have pointed out at the moment that is often the only way.



This thread wasn't about creating new services to help people make choices other than pirating, this is about creating consequences for pirating.
I'm not sure if you read about it, but the court ruled in the UK that IP address' are not people, thus the person who is registered to that IP address is not necessarily accountable.

You can find the link here... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/court-confirms-ip-addresses-arent-people-and-p2p-lawyers-know-it.ars

The idea of internet ID's is to create accountability for actions on the web.   My metaphor before about speeding tickets is to explain the idea that, although the ticket is given to the registered user of the car, the person driving may be different.  Just like the person using the internet connection to torrent at a net cafe may not be the person registered to the IP address.

Currently, you are able to almost any fake ID, and those with know how are capable of stealing almost anything, including Credit Card details.  This solution, like many others, is a 'line of best fit', it may not cover every point, but 95% of the time it would work.  In my opinion it works to discourage those who pirate for the reason that comes down to just not wanting to pay for something.  

macuser

2120 posts

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  #479756 10-Jun-2011 15:33
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And just to reiterate, of course media companies need to rethink their online schemes, but that isn't the point of this thread, there are two issues.


  1. How can a media company convince users to buy their content

  2. How can we prevent people pirating content


I'm trying to create a solution for the second problem.  

If you went to the store to buy a TV,  if you didn't want to pay for it, you didn't have to, but you wouldn't get access to the TV.  

If you didn't want to pay an MP3 store for an album, you are easily able to go and pirate said album for free.   

 

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