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3453 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978499 16-Mar-2018 10:52
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Oubadah:

 

Not sure where you got the idea I was talking about Windows. I said Doze

 

 

My bad, just trying to help you, you know most windows haters call it doze. I forgot about Androids Doze feature.

 

So right now Doze is limiting your ability to get timely notifications for email etc, is that the issue?

 

How much work have you done with Doze?

 

Oh I feel your pain if you do have to go down the iPhone route. To get anything even worth using you have to go top model, then you have to pray one of the many things that have occured or may occur in the future to Apple phones doesnt happen. Then you will be twice as pissed as now apple and droid arent working.

 

Thats why Win10 was so brilliant, it was by far the most professional OS in this regard, no sloppy icons slapped across windows and features not working. Locked down tight with just enough modification to make it feel like your own phone. They wanted 1 OS for the 3 platforms and unlike Android and Apple, they acheived it, next thing they buy lumia and bury windows 10 phone. We all know why, 1 device to replace 3 platforms, but I wish they would hurry up with it as I too am quite over both platforms and still use Win10 more regularly due to reliability and strength.

 

Anyway, back to your problem. I never by first gen of anything, for this reason, but that doesnt help you now. The next Nokia 6 is awesome. That doesnt help you either.

 

Is there a particular function of DOZE thats impacting the push of notifications, ie its going to sleep and nothing gets pushed out?

 

I really want to help as Ive been there and feel your pain, plus I think you have the wrong idea of Nokia, of all companies, it would be a tragedy to be thinking Nokia is not solid.

 

I have seen 6s selling used by the way, worst case scenario, as you alluded to, not the fastest selling, but thats more due to them being gen1.

 

Are you using stock Android and MS apps?

 

Another option could be to try it on Lineage and see if that improves the situation.

 

Clearly DOSE isnt being optimized for some of your apps, but Im wondering which apps? And if that is the case, thats the App not the phone.

 

Ive had similar issues with non native apps on Apple. Its frustrating but it came down to being the software developers problem.

 

Which again is why I like Windows 10 so much, you dont get 1 billion crappy apps with really bad support in the app store, like watsapp vs skype.


124 posts

Master Geek


  #1978513 16-Mar-2018 11:09
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Oubadah:

 

I said Doze, as in the Android feature that progressively cripples an idling phone in order reduce battery usage.

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=97&topicid=223501&page_no=6

 

The only apps that can notify reliably are those that have implemented GCM service support. This is a non-starter for me, and makes Apple my default choice. Had I been aware of that behavior before I purchased the Nokia 6s, I would never have purchased them.

 

 

It's a specific app issue rather than Android itself. You can try WakeLock app, enable partial wake lock and start the app as a service on boot. CPU on your phone will never go doze, but you'll pay with battery drain for that. 


 
 
 
 


3453 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978514 16-Mar-2018 11:10
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The new Nokia 6 on Android One at $469 is going to chew a big chunk in the market. Whilst I still like the battery of the Meizu M6 note, it will be interesting to see if Zeiss managed to tweak anything good out of the very average Nokia 6 2017 sensor. Otherwise the Meizu will win that department. So will be a straight up, people use to importing asian market phones and know which ones are good vs those who prefer local warranty, in that second category I see Nokia easily beating Moto g5s plus etc.

 

Still no news on a NZ release date for the 7,ugggh.


3453 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978516 16-Mar-2018 11:12
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qwerty123:

 

It's a specific app issue rather than Android itself. You can try WakeLock app, enable partial wake lock and start the app as a service on boot. CPU on your phone will never go doze, but you'll pay with battery drain for that. 

 

 

As I suspected as had the same issue on Apple with a specific app. So why the hate on Nokia though? Its not a Nokia 6 fault.

 

Switching to Apple just for an app is an expensive risk. Which particular apps are you having problems with?

 

This is the problem with mobile OS systems that have an open market, anybody can deliver an app but they are not obliged to make sure they do UAT and or fix model specific problems. Again, wasnt an issue with Windows as they made most of the apps and anything on the market went through a better vetting process than android and apple.

 

I feel the world is finally over the novelty "app" craze and wants professional/reliable products at the loss of numbers.

 

I feel we are at a point where certification for apps is mission critical, certification for app houses that is. I know it happens on a low level, but there needs to be less companies who cant deliver non problematic apps with mainstream OS features ie DOZE on Android. Having every second person being an app developer was tiresome in 2013, its getting beyond annoying now.

 

This is where I see Android One being a huge success and something Android should have done right from the beginning.


124 posts

Master Geek


  #1978566 16-Mar-2018 12:03
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Oubadah:

 

Had some movement with my update situation.

 

 

Btw, I bet you won't like Nokia 6 V5.22A_SP01 update:

 

1) output via internal speakers is broken, it's too load. you can alleviate it slightly by disabling Dolby;

 

2) either background activity cleaner became more aggressive or there is some bug with Dolby drivers (see #1). But media playback in background, when you lock your phone, stops within 30-60mins. It's annoying for audiophiles, but can be temporarily fixed with WakeLock app

 

3) They tried to fix camera shooting in low light, but for me photos look overexposed.


676 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1978684 16-Mar-2018 14:50
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qwerty123:

 

It's a specific app issue rather than Android itself. 

 

 

I would argue that it's just as much an issue with Google making the unrealistic assumption that every dev going to jump on whatever new system they start using. A huge number of apps are affected. there should be a switch in Android's settings to disable doze.

 

Thanks for suggesting Wakelock, I will have a look at that. But it's going to need to be 100% reliable. No occasional failure to load on startup etc.

 

qwerty123:

 

Btw, I bet you won't like Nokia 6 V5.22A_SP01 update:

 

1) output via internal speakers is broken, it's too load. you can alleviate it slightly by disabling Dolby;

 

2) either background activity cleaner became more aggressive or there is some bug with Dolby drivers (see #1). But media playback in background, when you lock your phone, stops within 30-60mins. It's annoying for audiophiles, but can be temporarily fixed with WakeLock app

 

3) They tried to fix camera shooting in low light, but for me photos look overexposed.

 

 

I know, the Nokia forum is full of the horror stories, but the phone was already a useless paperweight because of the notification bug (the Nokia bug, as distinct from the Doze issue), so it can't get any worse.

 

Hey, TeaLeaf. You want to know "why the Nokia hate?" Well ^that's another reason why. Non-stop bugfest.

 

TeaLeaf:

 

Is there a particular function of DOZE thats impacting the push of notifications, ie its going to sleep and nothing gets pushed out?

 

 

If you read the page I linked in my last post, it's explained there. If the app doesn't have GCM service support (which is tons of them, including high profile ones like Microsoft Authenticator), then all notifications are delayed until a maintenance window, which can be hours depending on how deep the Doze state is.

 

There's no point feeding me all that anti-Apple nonsense. I'm not a fan of Apple by any means, but you're exaggerating how bad their devices are. I'm already using iOS, and I was using it before I got the Nokia 6. That was my attempt to return to Android. Thanks to both Google and Nokia, that attempt was unsuccessful. For my needs, I now know that Apple is better. I have zero issues with notifications. Their quality control, while not perfect, is better than Nokia's. Their update delivery system is already flawless. They don't skimp on parts like speakers and jacks. Oh, and while trying to use the Nokia, I realised just how much I was taking always-on Siri for granted.


3453 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978756 16-Mar-2018 16:31
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Oubadah:

 

There's no point feeding me all that anti-Apple nonsense.

 

 

Actually I was trying to help you as Im across DOZE and other app issues with phones. Im not going to care now. And I doubt unless you provide specifics others will either. Its not a Nokia fault which you are suggesting. You feel burnt some you are trying to suggest Nokia is a bad QC company which really is laughable from someone who uses and misses Siri.

 

As for apple quality control, I couldnt care less if you own one, so do I. But I do know factually at $467 the 2018 Nokia 6 is well ahead of any item quality control wise from apple. ie a being CNC'd from a solid aluminimum block. Nokia have some of the best industrial designers in the world who place function over form but still spit out the best looking phone of this year and possibly the decade. Ive my 15 year old 6020 nokia I still use and my 620 which is my daily driver. Dropped it on rocks fishing, fallen into 1metre deep salt water puddles and not skipped a beat and no its not ip67 or anything.

 

So if you felt so strongly about apple you should have stayed there. Because you very much just sound like a hater. I on the other hand am just pointing out the number of documented quality control issues with apple over the years. As to say, you are no better or worse off with them. But if you feel so, go back to it and stay there.

 

Some days you want to help people but all you get is somebody hell bent on raging. Lesson learnt, dont try and help "some" sorts.

 

(oh I truely hope Andromeda lands just for this very reason).

 

Back to Nokia, Im wondering if they will sneak launch all the phones like they have 7?


 
 
 
 


676 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1978806 16-Mar-2018 17:14
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TeaLeaf: Its not a Nokia fault which you are suggesting.

 

I've been pretty clear about who I blame for what.

 

- Doze behavior: Google's fault

 

- Software bugs, poor QC, poor quality parts, poor support: Nokia's fault

 

If you think I'm blaming Nokia for Google's doze behavior, then you didn't bother to read my last message where I explicitly stated "Thanks to both Google and Nokia..." However, even if Google hadn't messed up doze, I would still be avoiding Nokia phones for the above reasons.

 

TeaLeaf: You feel burnt some you are trying to suggest Nokia is a bad QC company which really is laughable from someone who uses and misses Siri.

 

What does Nokia's QC have to do with Siri?

 

TeaLeaf: But I do know factually at $467 the 2018 Nokia 6 is well ahead of any item quality control wise from apple. ie a being CNC'd from a solid aluminimum block. Nokia have some of the best industrial designers in the world who place function over form but still spit out the best looking phone of this year and possibly the decade.

 

What does industrial design have to do with quality control?

 

TeaLeaf: Ive my 15 year old 6020 nokia I still use and my 620 which is my daily driver.

 

Are you aware that it's not even the same company? You're comparing devices manufactured by Nokia with devices manufactured by HMD Global under the Nokia brand, so the comparison is meaningless. I had Lumia devices, and the standard of QC was vastly superior.

 

TeaLeaf: So if you felt so strongly about apple you should have stayed there.

 

I didn't feel very strongly either way before I purchased the Nokia 6. That's precisely why I purchased it. I like to try the competition periodically, so I don't end up mindlessly sticking to one platform based on a bunch of outdated info and misconceptions.


124 posts

Master Geek


  #1978808 16-Mar-2018 17:24
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Oubadah:

 

I would argue that it's just as much an issue with Google making the unrealistic assumption that every dev going to jump on whatever new system they start using. A huge number of apps are affected. there should be a switch in Android's settings to disable doze.

 

 

Doze was introduced in Android 6. App vendors had plenty of time to make apps, relying on real-time downstream messaging while device is idle, Doze-compatible. I guess one of the reasons they did not do that is a need to use Google's infrastructure for FCM messaging, pretty sure it's not free.


676 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1978812 16-Mar-2018 17:39
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qwerty123:

 

Doze was introduced in Android 6. App vendors had plenty of time to make apps, relying on real-time downstream messaging while device is idle, Doze-compatible.

 

I guess one of the reasons they did not do that is a need to use Google's infrastructure for FCM messaging, pretty sure it's not free.

 

 

Either way, it's unrealistic for Google to imagine that everyone was going to adopt it, and whoever's fault it is, the end result is still delayed notifications on Android. How long before it's fully adopted? That'll probably happen around the same time Windows devs all switch to UWP... or hell freezes over, whichever comes first.


3453 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978818 16-Mar-2018 18:14
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This is why Windows locked down the OS, and why some didnt jump on it because it required work to port apps.

 

Its not Nokia, its not Android, its the App and End User error.

 

Your off to Apple, you have said your piece. Best wishes with that, I hope it resolves the issues for your apps.

 

In the mean time for people who want to talk about Nokia. Being on Android One should avoid a lot of these rubbish apps and user errors. Its a locked down OS, its updated by a single source. More like MS were doing. I applaud that move.

 

So if watsapp breaks, tough for Watsapp not doing UAT on all the phones that run on the Android One platform. Thats what it takes to make an app in what is an improved development environment, how it ever survived prior I have no idea, share luck Id imagine.

 

But it is exciting.


124 posts

Master Geek


  #1978866 16-Mar-2018 21:50
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TeaLeaf:

 

Being on Android One should avoid a lot of these rubbish apps and user errors. Its a locked down OS, its updated by a single source. More like MS were doing. I applaud that move.

 

 

I doubt. Android One is just a standard (not the OS itself) limiting OEMs to the stock AOSP, but it has no any effect on rubbish apps from play market. Nokia's Android is already as close as possible to AOSP, except some stuff related to Nokia HAL like camera, Dolby, etc. By joining Android One Nokia just moves the burden of regular Android updates to Google and with new Treble-enabled phones released in 2018 it's even more easier since HAL is decoupled from Android OS - Google can deliver Android updates monthly while vendor HAL changes might not be so frequent.

 

Google should just be more strict on app compatibility in play market. If app is not compatible with specific OS feature, e.g. Doze, it should not be available for install on Android 6/7/8/etc. May be that will force devs to update apps.


676 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1978867 16-Mar-2018 22:03
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qwerty123:

 

Google should just be more strict on app compatibility in play market. If app is not compatible with specific OS feature, e.g. Doze, it should not be available for install on Android 6/7/8/etc. May be that will force devs to update apps.

 

 

I was going to suggest this before, but I was conflicted because I loathe draconian moves like that when they happen elsewhere. If you lock things down too far, you'll stifle the app market. That's why I thought a good compromise would be to just allow users to disable Doze if they don't want it. However, in this case I think forcing it is the right approach. Maybe Google could do something about the extra cost, if you're right about that.


676 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1978966 17-Mar-2018 10:31
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Does anyone know why the Check For Updates process is so inconsistent in the amount of time it spends checking? It takes anywhere up to 10 seconds, but it varies greatly. Sometimes it completes within a fraction of a second, in which case I don't think it's actually checking at all (if I trigger it again immediately after, it will be back to checking for several seconds). One time when I triggered it twice in a row, the first time it returned nothing but the second time there was an update. I sincerely doubt that update was released in the ~1 second between checks.


3036 posts

Uber Geek


  #1978987 17-Mar-2018 12:01
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Manufacturers don't usually enable updates for everyone at the same time. It would kill their servers. Usually they open up certain geographical areas or product serial number ranges in waves.

As to why it takes anywhere between a second or two to much longer. I would imagine sometimes the update servers don't respond quickly enough (due to load) or sometimes it actually does respond quickly -many reasons for this sort of think.

Certainly common enough on many appliances/products that get software updates.




Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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