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Topic # 108711 4-Sep-2012 08:53 Send private message

I saw this article in the Herald regarding Bruce Willis taking Apple to court over his paid for music collection.

It got me thinking, do I actually own the music I have downloaded from the likes of Amplifer.co.nz etc or is this just an iTunes thing?

Obviously if you own a hard copy, its yours to sell lend etc as much as you like but I haven't considered downloaded music in this light before?

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  Reply # 681158 4-Sep-2012 09:00 Send private message

kiwitrc:...snip... I have downloaded from the likes of Amplifer.co.nz etc or is this just an iTunes thing?

What do their T's & C's say about it.

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  Reply # 681159 4-Sep-2012 09:01 Send private message

Despite owning a physical copy, you're still pretty limited with what you're allowed to do with it.

It'd depend on the source, buried within the 30-odd pages of T&C's for iTunes, you're pretty much agreeing to only leasing the music\apps etc from them. Just another reason to use alternatives.






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  Reply # 681160 4-Sep-2012 09:05 Send private message

oxnsox:
kiwitrc:...snip... I have downloaded from the likes of Amplifer.co.nz etc or is this just an iTunes thing?

What do their T's & C's say about it.


All I could find was this

Amplifier.co.nz  retails downloads in MP3 format.  The MP3 format is not subject to restriction management controlling how you are able to move the file between your computer/digital player/CD etc.  MP3 format files are compatible with nearly all commercially available digital music players including Apple's iPod.

But I was interested to find out on a bigger scale ie what others do regarding downloads.

I have emailed Amplifer to ask.

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  Reply # 681179 4-Sep-2012 09:50 Send private message

I don't really understand the need for ownership of music anymore. Spotify allows you to download to your device whatever you want. There is more music I want than I could ever afford to own.

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  Reply # 681182 4-Sep-2012 09:54 Send private message

kiwitrc: I saw this article in the Herald regarding Bruce Willis taking Apple to court over his paid for music collection.

It got me thinking, do I actually own the music I have downloaded from the likes of Amplifer.co.nz etc or is this just an iTunes thing?

Obviously if you own a hard copy, its yours to sell lend etc as much as you like but I haven't considered downloaded music in this light before?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/sep/03/no-apple-bruce-willis

Myth busted.

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 681185 4-Sep-2012 09:56 Send private message

Yep I saw that but question still stands do you actually own downloaded music or are you just renting it?

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  Reply # 681189 4-Sep-2012 09:59 Send private message

The Herald have removed the article. On the ball as always.




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  Reply # 681191 4-Sep-2012 10:00 Send private message

This is kind of becoming a metaphysical question. 

Even when we bought music on discs we didn't actually 'own' the music. There were plenty of limits on what you were able to do with 'your' CD. You couldn't broadcast it or show it publicly without approval for example. Sure, we bought and sold second hand CDs but I think in a very strict sense this was actually illegal, but just one of those things that was never enforced. 

What you actually bought was a licence with which you could do various things with the music as well as the physical plastic disc. Thing was the disc was pretty secure and under your physical control. 

Now with downloaded music it is a bit more complicated as while the licence to listen is pretty much the same you don't have anywhere near as much control. 

So, long story short... No, you don't own the music as you own physical things, you have bought a licence to listen to the music you downloaded under certain terms. The Ts & Cs might also say, 'these terms are subject to change'. 

Bit like software really, enjoy. 




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  Reply # 681210 4-Sep-2012 10:32 Send private message

crackrdbycracku: This is kind of becoming a metaphysical question. 

Even when we bought music on discs we didn't actually 'own' the music. There were plenty of limits on what you were able to do with 'your' CD. You couldn't broadcast it or show it publicly without approval for example. Sure, we bought and sold second hand CDs but I think in a very strict sense this was actually illegal, but just one of those things that was never enforced. 

What you actually bought was a licence with which you could do various things with the music as well as the physical plastic disc. Thing was the disc was pretty secure and under your physical control. 

Now with downloaded music it is a bit more complicated as while the licence to listen is pretty much the same you don't have anywhere near as much control. 

So, long story short... No, you don't own the music as you own physical things, you have bought a licence to listen to the music you downloaded under certain terms. The Ts & Cs might also say, 'these terms are subject to change'. 

Bit like software really, enjoy. 


Interesting, so assuming that the Bruce Willis story was correct in that you could not bequeath your itunes library to your kids, then the same would go for your record collection?

Also raises an interesting question as to whether say a company or family trust could buy the music, then which individuals would be allowed to listen to it.

Probably just another example of someone making rules but not thinking through how it would work in practice.

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  Reply # 681213 4-Sep-2012 10:43 Send private message

BigHammer: The Herald have removed the article. On the ball as always.


The whole Bruce Willis angle on the story (and hence the only reason the story got run) is apparently BS according to Bruce's wife  https://twitter.com/EmmaHeming/statuses/242631258310594562
"it's not a true story"

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  Reply # 681223 4-Sep-2012 10:56 Send private message

The thing is there are several different ways you can 'own' music. Owning a Beatles record is very different from owning the rights to reproduce the songs and sell them.

The thing that makes this all very complicated is the growing distance between the physical media and music.

You can bequeath you physical records to your children and the 'reasonable' principle means everybody accepts the licence to listen to the music goes with the disc.

With digital music the licence is tied to an account which is more personal than a physical record.

Therefore, when you die I guess the assumption is your account and everything connected with it dies with you?




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  Reply # 681224 4-Sep-2012 11:03 Send private message

stevenz: It'd depend on the source, buried within the 30-odd pages of T&C's for iTunes, you're pretty much agreeing to only leasing the music\apps etc from them. Just another reason to use alternatives.

+1

I much prefer to have MP3 files on my hard drive or USB stick and use them when/where I please without reference to any online account or media management software such as iTunes.  Just give me the raw MP3 files in simple folders thanks, so I can manage them in any way I see fit.





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  Reply # 681227 4-Sep-2012 11:10 Send private message

Redigi is currently litigating aspects of this in the US vs Capitol Records.

[Edit: corrected link to point to legal arguments]

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  Reply # 681233 4-Sep-2012 11:14 Send private message

gzt: Redigi is currently litigating aspects of this in the US vs Capitol Records.

[Edit: corrected link to point to legal arguments]


Now that is very interesting and the record companies appear to want to have it both ways:

Universal claims that a digital download constitutes as a sale for one likely reason: when it comes to royalties paid to artists, payout percentages for a sale are significantly lower than a license. However, In the case of ReDigi and buyers right to resell their lawfully purchased digital music, EMI is claiming that a digital purchase is a license not a sale.

Wow, why am I not surprised? 




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  Reply # 681375 4-Sep-2012 16:07 Send private message

When you purchase music either via digital download or physical disc from a shop you are limited to what you can do with it you can not use it in any commercial sense without contacting the media company that holds the rights to it first and negotiating an licensing/royalty fee

you can however move it around on any format you wish and play it on any personal player ... selling it however could be a shady situation you'd have to be able to prove you bought it and didn't just download it via edonkey or torrent you can give it away but once again proof of purchase must be given along with it

which pretty much leaves the easiest way to resell or give away music to someone else which is buy the physical disc or buy them an itunes card so they can download it themselves




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