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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 499292 29-Jul-2011 10:57 Send private message

oxnsox:
cgrew: Common sense would suggest that if the 'big players' and large greedy money making corporations came in to the field to play & actually contributed to helping the poor, rather than using these poor starving people as slaves to produce the "greedy corporations" product. Then maybe, just maybe, western civilisation could help the needy & starving.

Ahh... the utopian view
How many modern, or ancient, civilisations have succeeded along these lines.
But the lust for money & power won't allow this.The people that are involved in Capitalism are too consumed with their everyday lives to consider the possibilities of finding a remedy for this ever increasing, ever growing problem.

... and soo we end up with a number political eco-systems which claim to be working for the greater good.

- Do you stay with the utopian view and watch it morph through to an Orwellian society (and there's plenty of evidence that this happens)
- Embrace a promising but rigid doctine of Dictatorship. (It's all very well until someone looses an eye)
- Support the community of socialism. (Knowing how to speak French here has advantages)
- Become a born again Capitalist (Because you can)
- Or sit around a campfire singing Kum-ba-ya. (Because the sun has turned off for the day).

In the beginning surely we do all want for the best, but defining whats best for you, whats best for me, and whats best for Israeli tourists with 5 passports, is not the same. (Whether you're eating your GE enhanced cornbread or your Organically mutated toast.)



 




hey guys check out this article!

http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/robbie-williams-secret-communist-4331427

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500263 1-Aug-2011 12:07 Send private message

For those of you that are interested in modern economics, watch the first half hour of this film.

Interesting stuff, in relation to where the thread stands now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500271 1-Aug-2011 12:20 Send private message

cgrew: For those of you that are interested in modern economics, watch the first half hour of this film.

Interesting stuff, in relation to where the thread stands now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs



And if you've got two monitors, you can read it pretty thoroughly being ripped apart here as you watch it.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500277 1-Aug-2011 12:29 Send private message

...and while we're posting videos, hopefully this is still on-topic with the way this thread has gone. A brilliant TED talk, Michael Specter & The Danger of Science Denial.

Pretty much covers the GE argument, "big pharma", the anti-vaccine movement and how irrational fears threaten to stifle progress. 

 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500304 1-Aug-2011 13:14 Send private message

The author of that sceptic's website has the same platitudinous remarks as other sceptic forums I have come across.

The Zeitgeist film was watery in places, especially regarding religion etc but I thought the first half hour was interesting enough.

Logic would suggest that the U.S Government are going do have to do something about their "crisis" soon, going to Libya for a "peace-campaign" however, will not fix this:

http://usdebt.kleptocracy.us/


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500315 1-Aug-2011 13:29 Send private message

cgrew: The author of that sceptic's website has the same platitudinous remarks as other sceptic forums I have come across.


Way to discard all the valid rebuttals the guy made.

"The author" of Zeitgeist has also called the skeptic mentally unwell, simply for applying critical thinking skills to his factually redundant fantasy movie.

PS: Lumping skeptics into a group like that doesn't work either. It's not some club, or society of people who just walking around debunking things and have "no" as their default position on everything.




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  Reply # 500330 1-Aug-2011 14:00 Send private message

BurningBeard: ...and while we're posting videos, hopefully this is still on-topic with the way this thread has gone. A brilliant TED talk, Michael Specter & The Danger of Science Denial.

Pretty much covers the GE argument, "big pharma", the anti-vaccine movement and how irrational fears threaten to stifle progress. 

 


I have qualms about Michael Specter's speech & all I could think was that it allowed him to hold his view that science provides unmitigated progress, and all the ills of the world are down to politics. In fact, he attributes the ills to "our imagination", almost as though he's avoiding defining the culprit too carefully. Science relies on imagination, it's driven and influenced by ethics and politics. People, therefore, wanting to go back in time, to "before science trashed the planet" isn't science denial, it's just labeling a complex process as "science" rather than "imagination", say. We suffer from the exponential increase in population and wealth since the industrial revolution, fuelled by burning coal and oil, intensive agriculture and aggressive medical progress (not to mention an ever increasing arms race pre & post WWII).

If science is going to swagger about its leading role in modern miracles, I think it should stop evading it's part in the fallout. Michael praises technologies for saving lives. How does he know this? Maybe that's why he wants to go into the future, to reassure himself that it worked out.

If he prefers the purer definition of science as value-neutral, then it cannot claim to have benefited anyone; we might as well praise politics for implementing it, or our moral sense and imagination for inspiring it.

I rated this inspiring and obnoxious.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500344 1-Aug-2011 14:34 Send private message

cgrew: 

I have qualms about Michael Specter's speech & all I could think was that it allowed him to hold his view that science provides unmitigated progress, and all the ills of the world are down to politics. In fact, he attributes the ills to "our imagination", almost as though he's avoiding defining the culprit too carefully. Science relies on imagination, it's driven and influenced by ethics and politics. People, therefore, wanting to go back in time, to "before science trashed the planet" isn't science denial, it's just labeling a complex process as "science" rather than "imagination", say. We suffer from the exponential increase in population and wealth since the industrial revolution, fuelled by burning coal and oil, intensive agriculture and aggressive medical progress (not to mention an ever increasing arms race pre & post WWII).

If science is going to swagger about its leading role in modern miracles, I think it should stop evading it's part in the fallout. Michael praises technologies for saving lives. How does he know this? Maybe that's why he wants to go into the future, to reassure himself that it worked out.

If he prefers the purer definition of science as value-neutral, then it cannot claim to have benefited anyone; we might as well praise politics for implementing it, or our moral sense and imagination for inspiring it.

I rated this inspiring and obnoxious.


Oh dude, copying and pasting from a post directly below the video doesn't show that you've watched and comprehended the points in the video at all. Nice try*. It's almost as if you're just disagreeing for the sake of it.

If you're going to try to pass of someone else's comment as your own, for crying out loud, don't pick the very first quote under the video. Wink  Sorry, but it's a little pathetic.

*It also wasn't your style of writing.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 500346 1-Aug-2011 14:35 Send private message





(not to mention an ever increasing arms race pre & post WWII).





Arms race Pre WWII ... By Whom?




Load & Performance Tester/PHP/JSP/C/PERL/MYSQL/LoadRunner8->11/HTML/CSS/XML/XSLT/2B|!2B/Cervelo Soloist/EMC Equip4/ Samsung Galaxy S /Darkys 10.2 Extreme

Do androids dream of electric sheep?
use strict;
my $sheepCount;

Yes, they can.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500355 1-Aug-2011 14:44 Send private message

QUOTE "All I could think was that it allowed him to hold his view that science provides unmitigated progress, and all the ills of the world are down to politics. In fact, he attributes the ills to "our imagination", almost as though he's avoiding defining the culprit too carefully. Science relies on imagination, it's driven and influenced by ethics and politics. People, therefore, wanting to go back in time, to "before science trashed the planet" isn't science denial, it's just labelling a complex process as "science" rather than "imagination", say. We suffer from the exponential increase in population and wealth since the industrial revolution, fuelled by burning coal and oil, intensive agriculture and aggressive medical progress. If science is going to swagger about its leading role in modern miracles, I think it should stop ducking it's part in the fallout. Michael praises technologies for saving lives. Is saving lives is a good thing. How does he know? Maybe that's why he wants to go into the future, to reassure himself that it worked out.

If he prefers the purer definition of science as value-neutral, then it cannot claim to have benefited anyone; we might as well praise politics for implementing it, or our moral sense and imagination for inspiring it.

I rated this inspiring and obnoxious."

Better? Minus all of the spelling and verbal mistakes I noted. I have to say, he makes a good point.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500370 1-Aug-2011 15:03 Send private message

cgrew: Better? Minus all of the spelling and verbal mistakes I noted. I have to say, he makes a good point.


The person who made that point, is actually completely missing the point then.  Michael is voicing his concerns about a growing fear of science and reason (anti vaxxers, anti GM groups etc.)

cgrew: People, therefore, wanting to go back in time, to "before science trashed the planet" isn't science denial


He never said wanting to go back in time is science denial. This statement show just how much you/this guy miss the point. The Time Travel analogy was used to get the ball rolling in the conversation. He was pointing out that "the good old days" were full of horrible diseases, hardship, short life expectancy and high infant mortality rates, but thanks to the scientific process, we have worked through some of these problems.

If science is going to swagger about its leading role in modern miracles, I think it should stop evading it's part in the fallout.


Point missed. Again.
He mentions plenty of good reasons to mistrust some of our discoveries. I wonder if this person actually listened to the speech at all. You can't blame science for the atomic bomb or Chernobyl, only people. You might as well blame hurricanes and earthquakes on science while you're at it.  

"If science is going to swagger about" - straight away this is a throwaway statement. Science isn't a body. Science isn't a group. Science is a process.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500387 1-Aug-2011 15:25 Send private message

Holy crap are you guys still trying to reason with him?!

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Reply # 500389 1-Aug-2011 15:26 Send private message

TheUngeek: Holy crap are you guys still trying to reason with him?!


Close to giving up.

 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500393 1-Aug-2011 15:31 Send private message

BurningBeard: 

You can't blame science for the atomic bomb or Chernobyl, only people. 


That's a pretty simple answer? Obviously the "Scientist's" are to blame for the likes of the H bomb. There's no denying it.
       
Science is a process.


You've been holding that view for quite some time now?


  

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500396 1-Aug-2011 15:34 Send private message

Who do you blame? They guy who built the gun? Or the guy who pulled the trigger?
What re you blaming them for making something? Or killing thousands of people?

People who have shunned science are responsible for more dead than those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima

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