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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 500401 1-Aug-2011 15:39 Send private message

cgrew: 
You've been holding that view for quite some time now?

 


Okay, I'll take the bait.

Yes.

What is science to you? 




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  Reply # 500417 1-Aug-2011 15:58 Send private message

TheUngeek:
People who have shunned science are responsible for more dead than those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima


That's a load of crap. The invention of the Atomic bomb is no different than playing a game of Russian roulette with oneself. Only difference being is that the Scientist's & various Governments put our planet at risk.

Even though there may only be 1 bullet and 999999 empty chambers, it's still a terrible risk.

Point being - not only were the scientist's themselves unsure of what the consequences could be neither was the government at the time. They took the risk regardless of what the possibilities could have been in fear of what stage the enemy was at in the development of atomic weaponry.  
As I have mentioned before it was a rapid arms race during this period in the 40s & 50s to develop nuclear weapons.
In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being, it's only a matter of time before one of those "what if" scenarios isn't properly studied and very quickly becomes a "the day when" scenario.


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  Reply # 500418 1-Aug-2011 16:00 Send private message

Yeah.... I can't really reply to that without breaking forum rules....


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  Reply # 500419 1-Aug-2011 16:00 Send private message

cgrew:
TheUngeek:
People who have shunned science are responsible for more dead than those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima


That's a load of crap. The invention of the Atomic bomb is no different than playing a game of Russian roulette with oneself. Only difference being is that the Scientist's & various Governments put our planet at risk.

Even though there may only be 1 bullet and 999999 empty chambers, it's still a terrible risk.

Point being - not only were the scientist's themselves unsure of what the consequences could be neither was the government at the time. They took the risk regardless of what the possibilities could have been in fear of what stage the enemy was at in the development of atomic weaponry.  
As I have mentioned before it was a rapid arms race during this period in the 40s & 50s to develop nuclear weapons.
In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being, it's only a matter of time before one of those "what if" scenarios isn't properly studied and very quickly becomes a "the day when" scenario.



So you are blaming gun manufacturers and designers, NOT the people pulling the triggers. Cool - just as long as we've got that clear.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 500421 1-Aug-2011 16:03 Send private message

cgrew: In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being, it's only a matter of time before one of those "what if" scenarios isn't properly studied and very quickly becomes a "the day when" scenario.



Why not "In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being"?

Are you implying capitalism is the cause of this different set of priorities? Because if you are, I have got news for you... Stalin, Kruschev, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-il, Kim Il-sung all send regards and invite you to visit their lovely summer holiday houses, open to all workers of the world...

 




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  Reply # 500423 1-Aug-2011 16:17 Send private message

cgrew:
TheUngeek:
People who have shunned science are responsible for more dead than those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima


That's a load of crap. The invention of the Atomic bomb is no different than playing a game of Russian roulette with oneself. Only difference being is that the Scientist's & various Governments put our planet at risk.

Even though there may only be 1 bullet and 999999 empty chambers, it's still a terrible risk.

Point being - not only were the scientist's themselves unsure of what the consequences could be neither was the government at the time. They took the risk regardless of what the possibilities could have been in fear of what stage the enemy was at in the development of atomic weaponry.  
As I have mentioned before it was a rapid arms race during this period in the 40s & 50s to develop nuclear weapons.
In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being, it's only a matter of time before one of those "what if" scenarios isn't properly studied and very quickly becomes a "the day when" scenario.



Yes, the human race has made terrible mistakes with its knowledge. 

Most skeptics and scientists will agree with this.

Where the danger lies, as pointed out by the TED video I posted on the previous page - is in resisting and condemning all science because of these "what ifs."  That's where we end up climbing into that proverbial time machine and we're back to the dark ages.

Don't blame the scientific method for what man has done with it.

Fear of science, anti-science propoaganda and magical thinking is demonstrably dangerous, regularly lethal, and ruins lives.  Yes, so do weapons and environmental blunders, but at least as sentient beings we are aware of this and are hopefully in a position to steer our course in a more enlightened direction (also one of the sentiments shared on the TED video.)




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  Reply # 500425 1-Aug-2011 16:22 Send private message

cgrew:
TheUngeek:
People who have shunned science are responsible for more dead than those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima


That's a load of crap. The invention of the Atomic bomb is no different than playing a game of Russian roulette with oneself. Only difference being is that the Scientist's & various Governments put our planet at risk.

Even though there may only be 1 bullet and 999999 empty chambers, it's still a terrible risk.

Point being - not only were the scientist's themselves unsure of what the consequences could be neither was the government at the time. They took the risk regardless of what the possibilities could have been in fear of what stage the enemy was at in the development of atomic weaponry.  
As I have mentioned before it was a rapid arms race during this period in the 40s & 50s to develop nuclear weapons.
In today's Industrialized Capitalist society where time & money are more important than safety & moral well-being, it's only a matter of time before one of those "what if" scenarios isn't properly studied and very quickly becomes a "the day when" scenario.



Wow, there are just so many things wrong with that statement.

1. there was no arms race prior to Sept 1, 1939 as most beligerents (even the axis ones) entered the war under equiped. Wester powers only started modernising when the realised that Germany was only becoming more agressive. Germany itself in 1939 had committed most of its military to the Eastern offensive leaving the Western front essentially undefended. After the invasion of the low countries and France in 1940 Great Britian had to Deny france further fighters as it had none to spare, Germany used a larger number of Czech tanks in the offensive that it captured after Czechoslavikia was absorbed into the Reich. The US army at this stage was roughly comparable in size to that of Yugoslavia.

2. Most atomic scientists - oppenheimer in particular were against developing a Fusion device. However, the physics of the initial atomic bomb were well understood by the time gadget was exploded, so much so that the gun design (aka little boy) was not even tested. The bet about 'Setting the atmosphere on fire' was calculated out to be essentially nil and was more of a dark joke than an accurate prediction.

3. When the bomb project was started there was very little intellegence on what the German bomb project looked like, however it was feared that Germany had (and indeed did) have extremely competant physcists and engineers and therefore it was seen prudent to win the race.

4. By the time the korean war started, the US had largely demobilised much of its conventional armed forces and had, if memory serves less than a dozen servicible nuclear weapons.

History, unfortunately does not support you.





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  Reply # 500426 1-Aug-2011 16:22 Send private message

No doubt "science" can be looked at as a process. And if one was to look at a timeline for all the good that has come from science, well that is un-deniable. There is a lot of good that comes from it.

But when theories surpass facts and science becomes watery, I start to lose my faith & credit in the system. Developing the latest bio-chemical and geochemical weapons for a country's army all becomes rather ludicrous? Or developing nano-chip technology in to ones food to trick the human brain & nervous system in to actually thinking that it just ate a roast from a pill is absurd?

What good does something like that bring to society? And do you honestly think there are good benefits from it?

The graph I posted earlier, towards the bottom, the 114.5 trillion dollars, is the money that the U.S Government can't sustain in to the Medicare, Medicare Prescription Drug Program, Social Security, Military and other civil servant pensions. My question to you is - what will happen to all of those people?

The UN right now are discussing various ways to depopulate Earths population? Don?t any of you people find this concerning?

Freitasm - I am not a Communist.

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  Reply # 500431 1-Aug-2011 16:26 Send private message

Depopulate? Or decrease population increase?

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  Reply # 500435 1-Aug-2011 16:27 Send private message

cgrew: The UN right now are discussing various ways to depopulate Earths population? Don?t any of you people find this concerning?


Link please, and from an official UN site, not from a third party conspiracy theory site.

 




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  Reply # 500437 1-Aug-2011 16:29 Send private message

cgrew: What good does something like that bring to society? And do you honestly think there are good benefits from it?


You're just cherry picking examples you don't like. Do you really need any examples of the amazing discoveries that benefit us on a daily basis? Amazing discoveries you may well just owe your own life to.

cgrew: No doubt "science" can be looked at as a process. 


No kidding. It's because it is. 

You're welcome to your own opinions, but nobody is welcome to their own facts (paraphrasing someone else there, but I like it.)




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  Reply # 500440 1-Aug-2011 16:37 Send private message

ScottStevensNZ:

1. there was no arms race prior to Sept 1, 1939 as most beligerents (even the axis ones) entered the war under equiped. Wester powers only started modernising when the realised that Germany was only becoming more agressive. Germany itself in 1939 had committed most of its military to the Eastern offensive leaving the Western front essentially undefended. After the invasion of the low countries and France in 1940 Great Britian had to Deny france further fighters as it had none to spare, Germany used a larger number of Czech tanks in the offensive that it captured after Czechoslavikia was absorbed into the Reich. The US army at this stage was roughly comparable in size to that of Yugoslavia.


Historians have argued that the Germans have been in an arms race since WWI. Their aggressive input for science & technology in to the German Army was proven by 1938 before they entered WWII. And they knew what threat Russia opposed to them long before they declared war. 

2. Most atomic scientists - oppenheimer in particular were against developing a Fusion device. However, the physics of the initial atomic bomb were well understood by the time gadget was exploded, so much so that the gun design (aka little boy) was not even tested. The bet about 'Setting the atmosphere on fire' was calculated out to be essentially nil and was more of a dark joke than an accurate prediction.


Yes, it was deemed "unlikely" but that is still a terrible risk to even consider. 

3. When the bomb project was started there was very little intellegence on what the German bomb project looked like, however it was feared that Germany had (and indeed did) have extremely competant physcists and engineers and therefore it was seen prudent to win the race.


I agree.  

4. By the time the korean war started, the US had largely demobilised much of its conventional armed forces and had, if memory serves less than a dozen servicible nuclear weapons.


Do you know the exact number of nuclear weapons the United States has in service today? 

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  Reply # 500473 1-Aug-2011 17:34 Send private message

freitasm:
Link please, and from an official UN site, not from a third party conspiracy theory site.

 


http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/longrange2/WorldPop2300final.pdf

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=521




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  Reply # 500484 1-Aug-2011 17:50 Send private message

cgrew:
freitasm:
Link please, and from an official UN site, not from a third party conspiracy theory site.

 


http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/longrange2/WorldPop2300final.pdf

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=521



I was worried for a minute until I started browsing the document... It's a study of population projections, not a manifesto for global de-population.

In the second link, the author provides quotes, presumably out of context... FROM 1921 AND 1922!!!!

Please restate what you see as so bad about looking into population projections.

I also note you ignored my last statement in this thread - I can only assume becuase it was I stated something so clearly you had no way to misinterpret it.

Cheers - N




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  Reply # 500491 1-Aug-2011 18:06 Send private message

cgrew:
freitasm:
Link please, and from an official UN site, not from a third party conspiracy theory site.

 


http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/longrange2/WorldPop2300final.pdf



Oh, please... Have you ever read that document?

Quoting from the PDF page 82:


Given the demographic implications that have been drawn out, do any long-range threats emerge to human welfare? Since the focus here is on describing the demographic trends rather than assessing economic, social, political, environmental, or other consequences, this question is not answered but rather posed for others to consider.
 

Jumping from that to the conclusion that the UN is on a program to "depopulate" the planet is a bit too much. I'm leaving this discussion because no good can come out of it. It was fun up until now, but seriously, there's a point where even the most tolerant can't argue any more.

You have all the right to say whatever you want, even the most disparate assertions (which is almost redundant). But seriously...
 




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