Quote for Re-Laying Outdoor Tiles

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#1516990 21-Mar-2016 15:20

networkn:

Well I am not sure about how this works, but they have pulled about 12 pavers up so far and then got string and a level out, and then stopped. I presume it's so they know the level they are trying to reach. I would have thought first job would be to lift all the pavers for the area you are working in.

They are there again today and seem to be making some progress. We will see what happens.

They provided a plan and explanation for drainage, and whilst it didn't seem completely necessary, they are going to take it (The $700) off the quote for the lawn relay they gave us, so other than cashflow it won't "cost" any more.

I told them I wasn't advancing any more funds on work completed and after 2 days they agreed.

I guess we wait and see.

You answered you own question I think without seeing which pavers they lifted.

If they took all the pavers away - they would have to calculate the level.
This way they, they can compact the ground and from measuring from the string down down - know how much they have to top up.

I do the same thing with Boxing for a concrete slab - I dont dig the middle of the slab until all the boxing is in and level.
Then with a straight edge across, you know exactly how much to dig.

FYI - Had a tiler in for home downstairs and that was $4K for a nice job using FLC so your price doesnt sound to bad for your pavers and ground work.
Mind you cost me a lot more for laying those fine victorian tiles "Winkleman" in the porch

networkn

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#1516993 21-Mar-2016 15:23

D1023319:

networkn:

Well I am not sure about how this works, but they have pulled about 12 pavers up so far and then got string and a level out, and then stopped. I presume it's so they know the level they are trying to reach. I would have thought first job would be to lift all the pavers for the area you are working in.

They are there again today and seem to be making some progress. We will see what happens.

They provided a plan and explanation for drainage, and whilst it didn't seem completely necessary, they are going to take it (The $700) off the quote for the lawn relay they gave us, so other than cashflow it won't "cost" any more.

I told them I wasn't advancing any more funds on work completed and after 2 days they agreed.

I guess we wait and see.

You answered you own question I think without seeing which pavers they lifted.

If they took all the pavers away - they would have to calculate the level.
This way they, they can compact the ground and from measuring from the string down down - know how much they have to top up.

I do the same thing with Boxing for a concrete slab - I dont dig the middle of the slab until all the boxing is in and level.
Then with a straight edge across, you know exactly how much to dig.

FYI - Had a tiler in for home downstairs and that was $4K for a nice job using FLC so your price doesnt sound to bad for your pavers and ground work.
Mind you cost me a lot more for laying those fine victorian tiles "Winkleman" in the porch

Thanks. I think they are suffering cashflow issues and used our deposits to buy materials for another job, then needed more money to buy materials for our job if I had to guess.

We will know within a few days, they seem a bit more "motivated" after I refused to give the any further advance on the labour portion. Will be interesting to see what got done today.

networkn

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#1517968 22-Mar-2016 21:04

I presume it's not possible to do this job without a compactor? There isn't one onsite and it seems to me that despite the fact they said they would be "compacting" they don't have nor intend to hire a compactor. Before I raise it, I thought I'd double check.

mattwnz

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#1518008 22-Mar-2016 22:41

D1023319:

FYI - Had a tiler in for home downstairs and that was $4K for a nice job using FLC so your price doesnt sound to bad for your pavers and ground work.
Mind you cost me a lot more for laying those fine victorian tiles "Winkleman" in the porch

Yes, laying outdoor tiles, vs laying tiling in a house, is a substantially different job. Indoor tiling is substantially more expensive, as far more involved and a lot more step, and requires a far more precise job.

FiggyNZ

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#1518410 23-Mar-2016 13:04

networkn:

I presume it's not possible to do this job without a compactor? There isn't one onsite and it seems to me that despite the fact they said they would be "compacting" they don't have nor intend to hire a compactor. Before I raise it, I thought I'd double check.

Well, technically it is possible. However, compacting the soil helps to ensure a stable platform for the pavers and could prevent further earth moving, etc. In essence....For the area you are having done, it cannot be done well without it.

In saying that, are they "compacting" manually at all - Say laying a plank down and hitting it to force the ground flat?

Perhaps just ask how they are compacting the ground, and have they put down more base course? If not....Its not a good sign.

I am no trades person, but having done it three times myself in reasonably large areas - one of which was a big learning experience in what not to do and not to try to take shortcuts. My most recent attempt looks very professional.

MikeAqua

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#1518461 23-Mar-2016 15:04

I have seen compacting done after the pavers are laid.

Mike

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#1518463 23-Mar-2016 15:06

They have said they are compacting "manually" in the middle section of tiles, but edges are being done with compacted Gap 7.

Sounds like on the whole they are doing the job within reasonable expectations. I got overly worried they were cowboys trying to rip us off, but I think they are ok and just having big cashflow issues. I think I'll let them finish and see what the end result is.

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FiggyNZ

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#1518464 23-Mar-2016 15:07

MikeAqua:

I have seen compacting done after the pavers are laid.

Yea, sometimes this is done to settle the pavers....It will do nothing to compact the base course. And only on small brick type pavers as larger pavers might crack.

FiggyNZ

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#1518465 23-Mar-2016 15:08

networkn:

They have said they are compacting "manually" in the middle section of tiles, but edges are being done with compacted Gap 7.

Sounds like on the whole they are doing the job within reasonable expectations. I got overly worried they were cowboys trying to rip us off, but I think they are ok and just having big cashflow issues. I think I'll let them finish and see what the end result is.

Sounds OK. I would have done more if doing myself though.

D1023319

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#1520526 27-Mar-2016 19:11

mattwnz:

D1023319:

FYI - Had a tiler in for home downstairs and that was $4K for a nice job using FLC so your price doesnt sound to bad for your pavers and ground work.
Mind you cost me a lot more for laying those fine victorian tiles "Winkleman" in the porch

Yes, laying outdoor tiles, vs laying tiling in a house, is a substantially different job. Indoor tiling is substantially more expensive, as far more involved and a lot more step, and requires a far more precise job.

Yes i agree indoor tiling is a different job - hence a big part of my job was FLC to get the mismatching concrete floors right.
However i'ts not always true about indoor tiling always being more expensive than outdoor tiling or having more steps or having to be more precise.

Without seeing networkin job including size of tiles to gauge complexity or precision required - the money in outdoor tiling is in the ground work so it wont move in the future including locking perimeter nib if required.

soyeah, if your only throwing a few meter square tiles down for a patio without preparing the ground or leveling for drainage then yes it should be dirt cheap

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#1532966 14-Apr-2016 12:02

Right well things have gone worse to worse!

Basically as best we can tell the job is 30% done. Over and over they have promised it will take 3 days. There have been a variety of excuses, but this week the weather has been perfect, no public holidays. They have been here 3 of the 4 days for what we are estimating to be approx 2 hours a day.

No sign of the drainage gear we were asked to pay for in full up front (Normally I wouldn't do this, but things got complicated etc), no sign of a compactor on site though 2 days ago he asked us to leave a power cable out. He didn't come at all. I feel a week of good weather for a job this size is reasonable timeframe to give them.

Wondering how I go about resolving this now. I feel if I threaten them, they will rush the job and do an even worse job than they appear to be doing, equally at the rate they are lifting and relaying, we believe it will take another 2 months to complete this job.

Communication is only via text and they just keep sending assurances the job will be completed soon and we will be happy.

Wondering given they promised it would be finished by the end of this week, if can legally call it a breach of contract, and tell them to stop and refund the money?

MikeAqua

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#1533029 14-Apr-2016 13:41

Oh dear.

Your best (?only) option is to keep hassling them. If you can track them down in person hassling is better.

You will probably have more luck getting them to complete the work than refund you.

Perhaps insist they deliver the drainage materials you have paid for to site immediately.

networkn:

Right well things have gone worse to worse!

Basically as best we can tell the job is 30% done. Over and over they have promised it will take 3 days. There have been a variety of excuses, but this week the weather has been perfect, no public holidays. They have been here 3 of the 4 days for what we are estimating to be approx 2 hours a day.

No sign of the drainage gear we were asked to pay for in full up front (Normally I wouldn't do this, but things got complicated etc), no sign of a compactor on site though 2 days ago he asked us to leave a power cable out. He didn't come at all. I feel a week of good weather for a job this size is reasonable timeframe to give them.

Wondering how I go about resolving this now. I feel if I threaten them, they will rush the job and do an even worse job than they appear to be doing, equally at the rate they are lifting and relaying, we believe it will take another 2 months to complete this job.

Communication is only via text and they just keep sending assurances the job will be completed soon and we will be happy.

Wondering given they promised it would be finished by the end of this week, if can legally call it a breach of contract, and tell them to stop and refund the money?

Mike

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#1536386 20-Apr-2016 10:44

MikeAqua:

Oh dear.

Your best (?only) option is to keep hassling them. If you can track them down in person hassling is better.

You will probably have more luck getting them to complete the work than refund you.

Perhaps insist they deliver the drainage materials you have paid for to site immediately.

Unfortunately, we have come to realize who this guy actually is, and it's not good news. He is a convicted Fraudster who spent 2 years in prison for stiffing people out of money on landscaping jobs in the past.

I have made him aware via email that I know who is is, and given him 5 days to complete the job, or I will be taking the matter up with the police. There was the usual bluster and he appears to be hiding behind his "father" who assures me the job will be completed, but

he doesn't take kindly to blackmail and that because we got a discount he doesn't feel inclined to rush the job when they are busy with "other" full paying customers.

I sent back an email restating our position, and today he is there with a compactor (for an hour then left). Unsure how this will pan out, but in our head I have written the money off, and have collected information, ready to take to the police.

MikeAqua

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#1536393 20-Apr-2016 10:51

What you are engaging in isn't blackmail. I think you are being very reasonable.

I'll reiterate my advice to try and get the materials (or the money paid for them). That's an entirely reasonable request.

Also when they are on site, note vehicle plate numbers etc.

networkn:

he doesn't take kindly to blackmail and that because we got a discount he doesn't feel inclined to rush the job when they are busy with "other" full paying customers.

I sent back an email restating our position, and today he is there with a compactor (for an hour then left). Unsure how this will pan out, but in our head I have written the money off, and have collected information, ready to take to the police.

Mike

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#1536397 20-Apr-2016 10:55

MikeAqua:

What you are engaging in isn't blackmail. I think you are being very reasonable.

I'll reiterate my advice to try and get the materials (or the money paid for them). That's an entirely reasonable request.

Also when they are on site, note vehicle plate numbers etc.

Yeah, I am really clear on my legal position, they/he is just stalling for time since he knows we are leaving on holiday in just a few days.

He "won't" give us a receipt for the money paid, which is fine since I've only given him money via bank transfers. I won't be giving him any cash under any circumstances.

I told him we aren't going to do the drainage and won't be paying for it either. Given how much extra work is involved in laying it, I can't see them wanting to do it anyways.

We are working off a "reasonable" but unmoving position. I've told him if the tiles aren't at final level by 5pm Friday, the matter will be referred to police.

I am waiting to hear from someone else who got "ripped off" in Februrary, because additional evidence will be pretty damning.

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