Options for Ducted Heat Pump

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#1966582 1-Mar-2018 15:54

If you mean does the IP interface work ok, then no. It works but it simply fails to respond to commands almost as often as it works.

If I REALLY felt like it I could write a handler that made a change and then repeatedly checked the status every few seconds until it changed, and tried again every 30 seconds until it worked - but my hacky time is used up on other things at the moment.

Also I believe the wifi/IP interfaec may not be available anymore. It's old and only supports 2.4G wireless (no wired option)

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

jonathan18

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#1966592 1-Mar-2018 16:20

As another poster has pointed out, the topic has been discussed quite a bit in the past here on GZ, so I suggest reading through some of those threads as they cover off many of the same issues.

I was the starter of the thread at the first link below. Despite the problems we had, I’d totally do a ducted heat pump system again - next time just make sure the installers knew what they were doing! Yes, ducted systems do seem to take longer to bring a space up to temperature, but they are so much quieter and less dominant (visually) than the wall or floor units.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=175823

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=228856

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=203173

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=193422

Talkiet

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#1966602 1-Mar-2018 16:33

The quietness is the killer feature for me.

Of course, "Alexa, turn on the heatpump" which turns it onto "auto/23C medium fan" is fun for showing off :-)

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#1966703 1-Mar-2018 18:35

Talkiet:

Also, I spoke to every HVAC supplier in Canterbury. If there is one that understands what home automation means, they were away the days I called. They all pushed the cloud and proprietary smartphone apps for controlling the system and called those Home Automation.

Cheers - N

I work in building automation (not home automation but large commercial/infrastructure installations). Mechanical companies don't really understand automation, they undertand how install duct work and plant. Residential heat pump slingers are several degrees less skilled than your typical commercial mechanical guy so they would have no clue.

It's also complicated by home automation doesn't use standard protocols so interoperability is several degrees more complex. Bacnet gateways are pricey and don't generally work on residential heat pumps.

mattwnz

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#1966746 1-Mar-2018 19:19

Wash:
We went ducted in our current house, removing a high wall in the living space at the same time.

I briefly considered a split system, but since I needed to reach the entire house, it didn't seem all that practical. I considered zone control, but on the Panasonic and Fujitsu units, zone control is just opening and closing a damper on the outlets to enable or disable output to those outlets. There didn't seem to be any smart systems that would reduce flow to a zone if it was closer to the desired temperature than another zone.

There have been two unexpected upsides to ducted over standalone or split systems:

1 - The system is very very quiet compared to the high wall we had. At low speeds the only sound is from the intake vents (and it is just a gentle hiss). At full blast, it still isn't all that loud... definitely no need to turn up the TV or anything. With the highwall, we were constantly fighting the noise to hear the TV etc.

2 - With it having outlets in virtually all rooms of the house, there is good airflow throughout the house so even with closed windows in some rooms, they get a supply of fresher air from elsewhere in the house. Add an optional ventilation intake and it can be drawing a percentage of intake air directly from outside.

It is a lot more expensive to install a ducted system and probably more expensive to run since it is running for the whole house or not at all, but depending on your use case, these two additional benefits can soften the blow. For us, in a house that has massive thermal gain so it needs cooling even during the day in winter, ducted is much easier to live with due to the fairly constant temperature throughout the house and quiet operation. The only thing I'd add is the ventilation intake option.

A split system should be able to be to split to out to an entire home, even a large one which I am foing now. . I am installing some of the paircoils in ducting in the slab to get to the right areas. Just means more planning at the design stage. I was also told by the installer of the ducted system that I would lose a lot of the heat in ducting over long lengths and didn't seem that keen on it compared to the split system

lokhor

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#1966775 1-Mar-2018 20:30

Talkiet:

If you mean does the IP interface work ok, then no. It works but it simply fails to respond to commands almost as often as it works.

If I REALLY felt like it I could write a handler that made a change and then repeatedly checked the status every few seconds until it changed, and tried again every 30 seconds until it worked - but my hacky time is used up on other things at the moment.

Also I believe the wifi/IP interfaec may not be available anymore. It's old and only supports 2.4G wireless (no wired option)

Cheers - N

No i meant does it work to heat/cool the house and does it use a lot of electricity. I am not too fussed about zoning or even the wireless controller if it works well at the rest. Also I understand there is going to be a new wireless controller available later this year.

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

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lokhor

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#1966776 1-Mar-2018 20:32

jonathan18: As another poster has pointed out, the topic has been discussed quite a bit in the past here on GZ, so I suggest reading through some of those threads as they cover off many of the same issues.

I was the starter of the thread at the first link below. Despite the problems we had, I’d totally do a ducted heat pump system again - next time just make sure the installers knew what they were doing! Yes, ducted systems do seem to take longer to bring a space up to temperature, but they are so much quieter and less dominant (visually) than the wall or floor units.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=175823

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=228856

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=203173

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=193422

Thanks I was unable to find any previous threads about ducted heat pumps in the search

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

Cody64

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#1966781 1-Mar-2018 21:01

I look at the ducted, but decided on the multi heatpump system from one outdoor unit instead,

One thing to ensure with this method, is that the outdoor can handle the total output of the inside units. We had a similar system in our last house and the units basically had to take turns to provide heat. It was finally found to be due to the outdoor unit not being able to provide sufficient heating for both units. It had been specced by a 'specialist' before we bought the place.

It's a pity you can't go ducted due to the roof design. We did for our new house and it is brilliant, wasn't much dearer than 2 highwall units but now the whole house is a constant temperature.

Talkiet

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#1966783 1-Mar-2018 21:24

lokhor:

Talkiet:

If you mean does the IP interface work ok, then no. It works but it simply fails to respond to commands almost as often as it works.

If I REALLY felt like it I could write a handler that made a change and then repeatedly checked the status every few seconds until it changed, and tried again every 30 seconds until it worked - but my hacky time is used up on other things at the moment.

Also I believe the wifi/IP interfaec may not be available anymore. It's old and only supports 2.4G wireless (no wired option)

Cheers - N

No i meant does it work to heat/cool the house and does it use a lot of electricity. I am not too fussed about zoning or even the wireless controller if it works well at the rest. Also I understand there is going to be a new wireless controller available later this year.

I'm happy with every part of it except the controller. It uses about 1.8kW at full cooling and obviously it depends on how many zones I have configured (because it turns down the master fan speed if fewer than all zones are in use) and how hot is is when turned on.

It's also really quiet.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

mattwnz

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#1966816 1-Mar-2018 23:13

Cody64:

I look at the ducted, but decided on the multi heatpump system from one outdoor unit instead,

One thing to ensure with this method, is that the outdoor can handle the total output of the inside units. We had a similar system in our last house and the units basically had to take turns to provide heat. It was finally found to be due to the outdoor unit not being able to provide sufficient heating for both units. It had been specced by a 'specialist' before we bought the place.

It's a pity you can't go ducted due to the roof design. We did for our new house and it is brilliant, wasn't much dearer than 2 highwall units but now the whole house is a constant temperature.

I had an installer look at the plans, and he spec'd it, but it was totally under spec'd for the size of the rooms, partly due to very high ceilings. I got the manufacturers main tech do it properly using more accurate calculations than what they provide to installers, and have gone for a far more powerful outdoor unit as a result. So it is certainly something to be aware of.

lokhor

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#1966906 2-Mar-2018 09:46

Talkiet:

I'm happy with every part of it except the controller. It uses about 1.8kW at full cooling and obviously it depends on how many zones I have configured (because it turns down the master fan speed if fewer than all zones are in use) and how hot is is when turned on.

It's also really quiet.

Cheers - N

So worth getting zoning, or just get a whole house system?

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

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robfish

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#1966908 2-Mar-2018 09:50

lokhor:So worth getting zoning, or just get a whole house system?

Both of my sons have two systems, each with multiple outlets. One for the "living areas" the other for the bedrooms and bathrooms.

They are both very happy with them.

Rob

Talkiet

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#1966911 2-Mar-2018 09:53

lokhor:

Talkiet:

I'm happy with every part of it except the controller. It uses about 1.8kW at full cooling and obviously it depends on how many zones I have configured (because it turns down the master fan speed if fewer than all zones are in use) and how hot is is when turned on.

It's also really quiet.

Cheers - N

So worth getting zoning, or just get a whole house system?

That's probably more to do with your requirements than the systems. If you have a huge place and you want to heat/cool some of it occasionally, then sure, get zones. If you're getting a ducted system it's not that much more to have dampers put in to turn rooms on and off - but without a lot of extra work you won't have any sort of independent room control.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

jonathan18

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#1966938 2-Mar-2018 10:27

I’m still pleased we got the system installed with zones; similarly we have one for living space, the other for bedrooms (and by default bathrooms - neither of them have outlets, as recommended by all installers we had quote for the job). I can’t see the point of heating/cooling half the house if it’s not in use (eg bedrooms at night).

Edit: to add there’s also the ability to manually close down the vents in rooms if they’re not needed. Works fine with a low stud (and I’ll do this with the unused bedroom sometimes), but not an option in some of our rooms with a 3m stud height.

As someone else pointed out, and as I detailed in the top thread I linked to, the problem is many installers don’t understand the basics - to be of any value you need a thermostat in each and every zone to make it work properly. We only got this sorted when I explained to the installers the flaw with their install!

It’s frustrating that when we select a single zone we also have to go into the settings to select the relevant sensor; why the system can’t have the association programmed in, and then revert to the default if multiple zones are selected, is beyond me. I’m assuming home automation could deal with this easily, but so should the default controllers.

lokhor

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#1966942 2-Mar-2018 10:30

jonathan18: I’m still pleased we got the system installed with zones; similarly we have one for living space, the other for bedrooms (and by default bathrooms - neither of them have outlets, as recommended by all installers we had quote for the job). I can’t see the point of heating/cooling half the house if it’s not in use (eg bedrooms at night).

Edit: to add there’s also the ability to manually close down the vents in rooms if they’re not needed. Works fine with a low stud (and I’ll do this with the unused bedroom sometimes), but not an option in some of our rooms with a 3m stud height.

As someone else pointed out, and as I detailed in the top thread I linked to, the problem is many installers don’t understand the basics - to be of any value you need a thermostat in each and every zone to make it work properly. We only got this sorted when I explained to the installers the flaw with their install!

It’s frustrating that when we select a single zone we also have to go into the settings to select the relevant sensor; why the system can’t have the association programmed in, and then revert to the default if multiple zones are selected, is beyond me. I’m assuming home automation could deal with this easily, but so should the default controllers.

That sounds annoying a like a lot of hassle. I have asked how many sensors they intend to install.

What brand is your system btw?

All comments are my own opinion, and not that of my employer unless explicitly stated.

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