Which dishwasher to buy?

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Ultimate Geek

#663028 27-Jul-2012 17:14

I guess thats the trouble with asking the question, you are going to get a wide range of opinions.

I have had 2x F & P Dish Drawers. This first was one of the original "problem" models that we purchased mid ninities. We got something like 4 years out of it before it started having a couple of leaks. This is a well documented problem with the early models. However, F & P were very good about it. They let us upgrade to a brand new one for $700 (after we had 5 years use - I was stoked with that). This was around 2001. This replacement unit is still going strong. Not a single problem. So all in all a happy F & P customer because they put it right when it went wrong with the first one.

I have had Bosch kitchen appliances in the past and I will never touch them again. Their service and parts availability in NZ is awful (IMHO).

Niel

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#663079 27-Jul-2012 19:41

The problem with recommended any brand/model that has been reliable for over 10 years is that in the last 5 years we have a global "credit crunch" and the product that was made 10 years ago is a lot different from the one made today. Manufacturers had to cut costs. Some went for grey market parts. Some stopped investing in factory maintenance. It is a very different environment from 10 years ago.

F&P Appliances employ new graduates. It gives the company new ideas, but the consistency en engineering experience is lacking. This is how you end up with a dishwasher which is brilliant in principal but LCD/buttons inside the dishwasher on a horizontal surface where water will eventually get into them.

Bosch tends to make very good quality (relative to others). Their coffee makers are one of few that do not burn the beans. And their 7kg dryer is brilliant. Apparently the matching washing machine is also great, might try it after my second Samsung top loader packs up (lasts 7~10 year with daily use). For parts just go to eBay.co.uk after the 3 year extended warranty expires.

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Handle9

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#663098 27-Jul-2012 20:29

Niel:
F&P Appliances employ new graduates. It gives the company new ideas, but the consistency en engineering experience is lacking. This is how you end up with a dishwasher which is brilliant in principal but LCD/buttons inside the dishwasher on a horizontal surface where water will eventually get into them.

I don't feel your opinion is totally accurate. You are correct that F&P emploloys grads, but so do Bosch-Siemens Appliances, and most corporate engineering companies with large numbers of engineers. When I worked at F&P Healthcare we were employing 20+ grads a year because there was so much growth that they couldn't employ enough people. The guys at appliances had a lot more experienced people because they didn't have so many seats to fill.

Some of the quality issues come from a product development philosophy where the focus is on being quick to market and a willingness to do things in a way which is different than the accepted norms. This philosophy leads to big wins, like the dish draw and smart drive, but also leads to quality issues, especially on generation 1 products. It's a philosophy which has it's strengths and weaknesses. Personally I'd buy F&P but I wouldn't buy a first generation product.

Niel

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#663165 28-Jul-2012 08:09

The company I work at is on the list of top NZ companies to watch (I think number 2 or 3), we export international to all continents, we are the leader in our field setting the benchmark for other companies worldwide, and we have a large engineering team. We employ very few graduates, mostly require 3-5 years experience. We also look at graduates with post-graduation degrees. We host factory tours and workshops to teach others in the industry how to do efficient production.

Quick to market does not have to mean production issues. If you have production issues that get to the customer then you have done something wrong. You can have production issues, but they do not have to leave the factory and they do not have to take for ever to be resolved. Design for manufacture and design for test does is part of design from day one, not something to be added to the working prototype. You get that only with experience of what works for your company manufacturing processes, and get issues.

Our previous dishwasher was an AEG we got second hand for like $5 off TradeMe. It was flooding so it went for cheap. I found a piece of glass in the strainer and it has never flooded in 7 years for me. Towards the end it would sometimes stop and you turn the knob to the next click and it will finish. When I gave it to a friend last month who wanted a temporary dishwasher because his 6 months old F&P latest generation drawers failed, we found a cockroach in the strainer (our 45 year old house had space for it only in the wash room which was open to outdoors and "visitors"). Removed that and he has not had any issues. He is going back to a drawer simply because his wife has back problems and she can't use a normal dishwasher.

Our current dishwasher is a Smeg tall tank which apparently has the most space of all dishwashers. We got it as part of a package, actually only wanted the 90cm ceramic top oven, but got a good deal on a full set of appliances. No issues at all, except after a month or so when you close the door you hear a click in the hinge.

Smeg has good local support, and despite being an Italian brand there is very little made in Italy so you are not under threat of their financial/political issues. For example their water/ice dispensing fridge freezer is made by Daewoo so parts are available and it is very easy to work on.

You can never have enough Volvos!

Nety

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#663168 28-Jul-2012 08:31

We have a LG which is around four years old now. So far no faults and does a good job.

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Handle9

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#663170 28-Jul-2012 08:41

Niel: The company I work at is on the list of top NZ companies to watch (I think number 2 or 3), we export international to all continents, we are the leader in our field setting the benchmark for other companies worldwide, and we have a large engineering team. We employ very few graduates, mostly require 3-5 years experience. We also look at graduates with post-graduation degrees. We host factory tours and workshops to teach others in the industry how to do efficient production.

Quick to market does not have to mean production issues. If you have production issues that get to the customer then you have done something wrong. You can have production issues, but they do not have to leave the factory and they do not have to take for ever to be resolved. Design for manufacture and design for test does is part of design from day one, not something to be added to the working prototype. You get that only with experience of what works for your company manufacturing processes, and get issues.

Niel you are correct that quick to market doesn't have to mean production issues. My point was that saying that F&P can have issues with quality isn't as simplistic as saying that it is because they employ graduates.

The company I work for, which is a European engineering mega-corporate, has issues from time to time with gen one products. The more you change on a design, the more unknowns you get and the more flaws you find in the field. We are recognized as having the highest quality standards but it doesn't make us immune from issues. Anyone who suggests you aren't going to find issues in the field is either kidding themselves or working with pretty simple products with strictly defined use cases.

Anyway this is turning into a rat hole and is way OT.

stevenz

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#663847 30-Jul-2012 10:13

Any word on the Haier or Samsung units? I know they're more "economically" priced, but any experience with quality?

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#663882 30-Jul-2012 10:46

stevenz: Any word on the Haier or Samsung units? I know they're more "economically" priced, but any experience with quality?

From memory, in this thread someone mentioned that the F&P are now crap because they use Haier parts, and I think several people trashed Samsungs... you'll have to read the thread to be sure thou

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#663884 30-Jul-2012 10:55

Consumer didn't include Haier or Samsung in their reliability measures, they're probably too new. Neither of them make the recommended list.

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#663885 30-Jul-2012 10:56

robertsona: Late last year we bought a Bosch model that looks to be similar spec and price. It's a fairly simple model - performance and reliability are good - does what it should do. However, I do have a couple of things to point out. The main one is the design of the upper rack - the spaces just don't allow things like mugs and glasses to sit well. It can be difficult to get the machine packed well (and as primary dishwasher loader, this causes some discomfort). Other aspect is the wash cycle time - nearly 2.5 hrs for a normal wash.

We have Bosch appliances and after 6 years whilst the DW is still working pretty much perfectly, the LCD has gone and needs to be replaced for about $350 which is a pain. The newer ones aren't designed as well, personally, but they sure do wash well.

Handle9

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#663911 30-Jul-2012 11:40

keewee01:
stevenz: Any word on the Haier or Samsung units? I know they're more "economically" priced, but any experience with quality?

From memory, in this thread someone mentioned that the F&P are now crap because they use Haier parts, and I think several people trashed Samsungs... you'll have to read the thread to be sure thou

Just to clear up the confusion around F&P.

They are part owned by Haier, I haven't seen anything anywhere around them using Haier parts. Not saying they don't use them but it also doesn't mean they do. The share distribution channels with Haier.

They also own Elba, which was an Italian appliance manufacturer making mainly cooking products. This is where the Elba by Fisher and Paykel brand comes from. Once again it doesn't mean that they are or are not sharing parts.

With mergers and acquisitions it is a bit hit and miss as to how completely the pre merger companies get folded into the new parent. In some cases they are fully absorbed, in others they are run as a satellite business on their own and just have to return a dividend to the parent.

Even if they are fully folded in you don't change over suppliers instantly, it can take years to migrate production lines from one supplier to another. I would think it to be unlikely that F&P are using lots of Haier components on their lines as a fairly high proportion of their components are made specifically for F&P. Rebadging an entire product is far more likely as all that involves is doing new signage for the product and box.

Handle9

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#663912 30-Jul-2012 11:43

stevenz: Any word on the Haier or Samsung units? I know they're more "economically" priced, but any experience with quality?

We have a Haier dishwasher which came with a house we bought. It cleans fine, doesn't dry all that well (plastic in particular) and hasn't broken down in 2 and a half years since new. It's not the best dishwasher in the world but for $569 it's not bad.

I wouldn't buy another one for my own house as it's noisy and we have an open plan kitchen/living area but I'd consider it for a rental - it's a decent unit for a cheap price and has been reliable.

Regs

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Snowflake

#663949 30-Jul-2012 13:06

i've had F&Ps in the past, including dishdrawers. didnt much like them
currently have a upper-end bosch model (SGU57M45AU 4 years old?) and cant rate it highly enough. layout is great, super quiet and does an awesome job of cleaning dishes.

have a whirlpool ADP6000IX dishwasher at the office. WORST DISHWASHER EVER. poor layout, hard to stack cups etc, and tends to make dishes dirtier - not cleaner. running on the heavy duty pot cycle and it still suck. dont buy a whirlpool!

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bfginger

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#676067 23-Aug-2012 17:45

F&P has issued a recall notice for some dishwashers made between 2000 and 2008
http://www.fisherpaykel.co.nz/customercare/product-recall/

solitaire

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#676499 24-Aug-2012 16:44

I used to be a die hard F&P fan, got one roughly 4 years ago and have been ripping it apart and fixing it since, first time i did i was pretty annoyed to see haier parts inside.

The engine start capacitor died, replaced that, then an electrical issue occured which kept melting the door latch switch (was not related to the leaky door latch issue which was recalled).

Never again - bought a bosch recently and its fantastic, well worth the extra cash, damn quiet too.

F&P Washing machine - Yes
F&P Dishwasher - Run to the hills!

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